Tough spot pre 225bb deep - Page 3 - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum

We can't possibly know his 4b range is literally only AA-KK, 5b ranges are a bit different. Obv without any metagame its hard to know going into a new game, but thats not even what I'm argueing

My point is that many posters suggested that a cold 5! is almost always AA, so without anybody at the table knowing you, you should fold. It doesn't make sense to claim that Hero should fold KK, yet the cold 5! bluff is bad; esepcially when we consider that many people's 4! range includes at least AA,KK,QQ,AKs, so a cold 5! bluff in this spot might be good. (Again, I'm not saying it is or isn't good, but going off the same logic people used to deduce you should fold, it should also apply to saying that the bluff was good).

This is false because you're assuming that every player is just like you.

YOU should fold to a 5 bet shove because for the vast majority of the player population it's AA and KK only occasionally.

YOU should also not try to 5 bet bluff because the vast majority of the player population is not folding KK or maybe not even QQ/AK.

If you knew the opponent was just like you your statements would be valid. But you only have two hands to go on so you don't.

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02-11-2016 , 03:23 AM

#52

djz

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 2,478

Quote:

I like how people are responding saying "yeah you should fold, its always aces", yet claim his play spewy.

Pick a side.

this logic is wrong. even in aggro online games a cold 5b bluff is super rare. ok yea this particular spot calling with kings would've been correct...against the population it's a mistake...like if i shoved 10x pot on 973r with bottom pair that and someone folded aces to me face up that wouldn't mean my play is good.

even in super aggro online 6m games i can't remember the last time i saw this. if i saw someone make this play at nl400 i would definitely note the hand. like, people flat vs 4bets there with KK+ to keep worse hands in.

this is a fold at 10/25 too fwiw imo.

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02-11-2016 , 04:27 AM

#53

YGOchamp

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 1,555

Quote:

Originally Posted by djz

like if i shoved 10x pot on 973r with bottom pair that and someone folded aces to me face up that wouldn't mean my play is good.

If any Hero posted a HH where they were facing a checkshove with AA on 973, and the response was for the population this is almost always a set and you should fold, then it makes perfect logical sense that the same logic should be applied to say it's a decent spot to bluff (you have to balance some bluffs w/ equity with your sets, you can't just only be shoving sets and let them fold overpairs without thinking twice. If they are, keep shoving rainbow boards).

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02-11-2016 , 04:40 AM

#54

wj94

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 7,951

Just for the record I didn't say fold. I said it's always aces. But you just pay it off and get there 18% when they have it.

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02-11-2016 , 04:44 AM

#55

YGOchamp

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 1,555

Quote:

Originally Posted by wj94

Just for the record I didn't say fold. I said it's always aces. But you just pay it off and get there 18% when they have it.

ah okay. Thanks for the clarification, you're advocating that we say outloud "well I know we're beat but I guess I'm going to pay you off" and promptly call.

Should we do the same anytime we're overflushed?

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02-11-2016 , 05:02 AM

#56

wj94

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 7,951

Quote:

Originally Posted by YGOchamp

It depends. I don't fold KK pre unless the 5b guy is 100 years old and someone just woke him up from his nap at the table. And then I still prob call.

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02-11-2016 , 05:06 AM

#57

ylac

centurion

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 157

Surprised no-one mentioned that V's line is very suss, he cold-calls 3b in a 3 way pot w/AA, then 5b back-ships. I expect young hoodie dude to 4b the CO w/AA over 70% of the time. This looks much more like AK spazzing.

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02-11-2016 , 05:07 AM

#58

YGOchamp

old hand

Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 1,555

Quote:

Originally Posted by wj94

It depends. I don't fold KK pre unless the 5b guy is 100 years old and someone just woke him up from his nap at the table. And then I still prob call.

Right. And when we have a queen high flush and somebody checkshoves 5x our bet OTR, it's always the nuts. But you're not advocating we fold.

So to ensure we are always ego-freerolling, should we also say out loud how we know we're beat yet are still going to call? I'll be damned if people think I called without knowing it was a bad call.

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02-11-2016 , 05:42 AM

#59

wj94

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 7,951

Quote:

Originally Posted by YGOchamp

If we have Q high flush then there's way more combos of hands that can beat that than when we have KK pre. Plus people don't c/shove flush boards without a flush. So it depends how fishy they are. You can't win with 0% equity but you can win with 18%. Apples and oranges my man.

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02-18-2016 , 03:12 PM

#60

djz

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 2,478

Quote:

Originally Posted by YGOchamp

there are much better hands to bluff with than bottom + middle pair and it's not hard to make up a range that consists of enough of them to be able to check-raise a set.

need 12 combos of bluffs if you're check-raising 3x a half set cbet whenever you have the two bottom sets...so: 65s, T8s, JTs, 86s. only check-raising the straight draws with a BDFD. to have 18 combos of bluffs and be able to chr top set for value just add like 45s and some set blockers.

in game just deviate massively from GTO and be more value-oriented.

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02-18-2016 , 08:14 PM

#61

Mr_Doomed

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 1,629

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheLiveCrush

Hero's 3rd hand at the table, coming from a broken table with ~$700 to start the hand. We are completely readless for all Vs in this hand. Live
notes/CO is a young Indian kid/BTN is an old man in a hockey jersey/BB is a young kid with headphones in and a hoodie on.
OTT;

Folds to MP($200), who opens for 10.
CO($500) 3bs to 35,
BTN($350) cold calls.
Hero($800) 4b to $100 from the BTN with KK. Folds to BB($450), who thinks for a few seconds, and eventually 5b shoves, throwing a $1 chip in and declaring "all in"
Quickly folds back to Hero.

?

What is your look/image to everyone?

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