1/2 @ Edgewater

V1 is well-dressed late 20s asian, raises almost every hand to 20-30 pre and will also call basically any raise. The first hand I sat down, 3bet his utg raise of 30 to 100 from the straddle, and ck/folded to his $200 shove on a dry A63r board. ($500)

V2 is loose, fairly passive preflop and postflop. He did vbet (I think?) T2s on a dry board (i.e. JJ852) after calling $17 pre and it got checked around 3 times. ($400)

V3 is a decent regular, early 30s asian who plays fairly tight but is stuck and is calling more than usual to play pots with V1. ($250)

Hero looks mid 20s. I was on the 2/5 list but chose to stay in the 1/2 game, so I may be seen as competent but maybe weak-tight. I have tank-folded twice, first to V1 and the second to V2 when I raised to $25 and got called by V1+V2, ckd J92r flop, bet $55 on 3x turn, and ck-folded 7x to V2's bet of $125. ($500)

The hand (V1 is in straddle):

V3 limps from CO, I raise to $25 with JJ otb and get called by V2 in BB, V1, and V3.

Flop ($100) K45ss, checked to me and I bet $55. All Vs call.

Turn ($320) 9x. Checks around.

River ($320) 5x. V2 checks, V1 bets $150, V3 folds. Hero?

Any thoughts on sizing/my line taken are welcome. I'll give my take on the hand after a few replies.

I'm noticing a lot of villains notice TAGs will take stabs at the pot if everyone checks(which is good when we're betting for value ), but in this situation with 3 villains in the pot, I'd be wary someone peeled a king on the flop and they were just letting you value bet yourself.

I like the flop bet as the king hits our range, and there's a SD and FD draw out there, but if we're going to represent a king, we would have to bet 2/3-3/4 the pot on the turn.

As played, we're definitely saying we don't have a king, and now we have to figure out if v1 was check/calling with a king or did he miss his draw?

You say he's basically calling with anything, this makes me think he'll have a lot more SD, FDs in his range then kings....

Let's say his range to call your flop bet is with many spade/spade combos, a bunch of K/x combos, and a few SD combos. I assume we'll see a CR or turn bet if he had tripps or 2pair. I'm guessing the 5 and 4 are spades.

My estimated range for him is: { KsQs,AsJs,KsJs,QsJs,AsTs,KsTs,QsTs,JsTs,As9s,Ks9s, Qs9s,Js9s,Ts9s,As8s,Ks8s,Qs8s,Js8s,Ts8s,9s8s,As7s, Ks7s,Qs7s,Js7s,Ts7s,9s7s,8s7s,As6s,Ks6s,Qs6s,Js6s, 9s6s,8s6s,7s6s,As5s,Ks5s,Qs5s,As4s,Ks4s,Qs4s,As3s, Ks3s,Qs3s,6s3s,5s3s,As2s,Ks2s,Qs2s,3s2s,KJo-K9o,76o,32o}

Which is 53 combos. 15 of those combos beat us on the river. So with my range I gave villain, we have about a 70% chance of winning. The most difficult thing about this is that he would probably play any king like he would a bluff.

I would call him.

fold
there's a king on the board

I like your preflop sizing because I think you're trying to thin the field n charge them to call with there crap, but it is a tiny bit to big. All in all fine though. I mean let's think are you really make it 25 w your AA KK QQ AKs and AKo? I feel you could be giving info up by making 2.5x the pot (but if you only open to 25 it's fine, but I highly doubt that's the case). Anyway that's something to think about.

Based on you're descriptions of the players, you seem to be at a pretty competent table. I'm almost sure you could find a better game. Ya know some old guys with white hair n card protectors, etc. lol

So on the flop if your betting, plan to have barrels on bricky cards. I would bet 60-70 on the flop in a 4 way pot. Board is draw heavy n you have to charge them for these draws IF YOURE GOING TO BET. You still can decide to check back n not play a huge pot 4ways w a hand that is either way ahead or way behind. Depending on table dynamics n what your opponents think of you will determine this.

On the turn since you got called by everyone you have to make an assessment and decision. You can 1) check and give up hoping to bink a jack on the turn. 2) bet 3/4 pot n represent AA AK KK (tough to do depending on what your opponents think of you).

As played I think the most optimal line is bet 2/3-3/4 pot on flop. 9 is a fine card it's hard for your opponents to have 2pr+. So bet 3/4 pot on turn. This will have gotten rid of all the junk by now. If called you gotta be jamming river. Otherwise you wasted flop n turn bet n shoulda just checked flop. You just have to have a plan in this spot. And don't take a detour on this runout. Your most likely to have the AK AA n KK so if you bet flop you gotta go with it on this runout. If you chose to check back flop that would a been fine to. But as played its bet bet bet.

This is a really good post IMO. I would probably throw in more straight draws (62o/63o/73o/86o etc.) and I also think every K is in his preflop range.

The hand was straddled, and in a 2/5 game I raise to 20+5 for every limper. Although tbh I think I would get called without the straddle lol...I honestly thought I made it too small.

I'm a degen, I need the action

I'm curious why you want to represent AA/AK/KK when we have reasonable showdown value?

I get why you say we should bet turn, but IMO V1 or V2 never fold a K to a river jam or at any other point in the hand - so basically for value we only get air to fold and mayyybe get a hero call from 66-88/TT, but get called by all Kx.

Is this edgewater in Vancouver? If so would you say it's a harder game to beat than hard rock or river rock?

I like preflop and flop bet sizing. I don't think we need to represent the King on the turn... We only fold out QQ that beats us, and that's probably 3-betting pre. On the turn I am conflicted between betting to get value from all the draws out there, and the risk of folding out 66-TT that might be calling you light. I think the check is good for pot control and letting V1 bluff the river with missed draws (assuming he is capable of that, doesn't say in your reads).

As played, it certainly is a tough spot. This is part of the reason we checked the turn, but at the same time $150 into a $320 pot 4-way is such a value-y, "call me" bet. On the other hand, V may not be thinking of it in terms of the pot, and may just think it is a big bet in general. I like oldschool_vegas' range analysis and think we should call here.

However, I would like to have seen him bluff a missed draw in the past. It would make me a lot more comfortable with the call.

Dear God... give me the maniac table over the OMC table any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Haven't played at RR in a couple of years. Mainly played 2/5 at hard rock (1/2 only while waiting for my seat), and it was pretty actiony the times I went. Edgewater is basically game selection IMO...pick a good table and you'll be fine (same goes for 2/5 as 1/2 but usually only one game runs if any at all).

I agree that V1/V2 both 3bet QQ (and that V3 opens with it), and that we should check behind ott for pot control.

So basically the issues are that:

A) we need to make sure we're good against V1's range
B) V2 is still behind us, and I doubt he ever (ever) folds a king, regardless of if we call.

V1 is definitely very LAG and IMO he is likely to be bluffing here a good portion of the time. Honestly if it was heads up I call fairly quickly, but V2 is passive/knows V1 is likely to bet, and isn't giving the "I'm going to fold, you call" look.

+1

This seems like a great spot to limp raise OTB, this guy is raising every hand and it's his straddle, he's likely to get frisky here imo. I take the high variance route. If he just happens to check. We have a disguised hand, and it's easy to get away from on bad boards

As played river is close. Is he bombing often when weakness is shown? How many times has he been caught bluffing. Ever on the river? Into multiple opponents? Hard to fold here. this guy could be V-betting 9x, TT, and probably a decent amount of steals in his range

Haven't you forgotten about the second villain still in the hand?

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I would raise more preflop $35 (which is excessive) because i really don't want 3 callers. I would cbet more on flop and see how many players are left. If heads up, it all depends on which villan is left here. V1 seems the fishiest Villan so I don't mind heads up against him.

AP I just call.

Good point about the V2 in the hand. It's actually a leak of mine that I get caught up facing a fishy/maniac Villain and completely neglect the impact of multi-way pots.

I think a big part of defining V1's range is whether we think he will bluff the river 3-way. Based on his sizing, based on the river, and based on betting into two opponents, he has to realize there is a good chance he will get called.

I am actually changing my mind and calling it a fold because of this.

I am also toying with an alternate line if effective stacks were deep enough (like $750+), and if we put V2 on just a K, and V1 on a lot of bluffs and Ks... And that is shoving to rep a 5 or a boat to fold out all those hands. I am not nearly good enough at hand reading to actually do it, but just a thought.

If we are trying to get 2 streets of value with JJ, I'd rather do it on flop and turn, and then check back river.

As played, river is a fold. Most players at 1/2 aren't bluffing rivers that often in the first place, plus villain is betting into 3 other players, which should make his range very value heavy in this spot.

If he's checking the river, I felt he wouldn't call both of us. In V2's history he does value bet, and since it checked around on the turn I would think he would bet the river for value.

He may be more passive then I think, and if he has a king, I hope he calls me and punishes me for my noobiness.

HH2010:

It's be hard to rep a boat, did we really check the turn with a set, on such a dangerous board in a multiway pot? I would never play my sets this way unless it's heads up and I know my opponents range very well.

:grunch:

Not sure why you'd 3-bet a guy the first hand before your know anything about him.

Preflop is fine, c-bet is OK. Sizing is tough with 3 callers since the pot is getting big. Once you get called by everybody and their mother, you're toast. At least one of them has a big K. I'd like to have real reads on V1's POST flop tendencies ... but without any other information this is a fold.

I never said what I had

I guess I didn't really say much about V1's postflop game, but it was very similar to his preflop game. Very aggro and he was fine getting the $ in, also rarely folded on the flop. I also think I implied this, but V2 is probably just as likely to call pre and flop with 68o as V1 is in this spot (which also means he can have any combo of Kx as well).

I really feel it depends on the players, dynamic, and location - in other casinos/cities I've played it would be a snap-fold. But it's late, chips are flying, and V1 is savvy enough to know that no one is super strong, and how strong he would look after betting (although I do think he bets any K/5x for value). As far as 1/2 players not bluffing rivers...I can't even count how many times I've seen $2-300 river bets as bluffs (and those are only the ones that get called).

As I said, I would call pretty quickly if it were heads up, but knowing that V1 was betting into three players and V2 being behind me slowed me down a bit. Anyway...

If he is right that we beat villain 1 around 70% of the time, then this is an easy call even with the villain behind us because of the pot odds. That bet does look really suspicious to me and I'd call it.

Ok, i think I am bad at knowing when to make these sort of hero calls multi way

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Agree... I'm not sure what initiated the myth of "LLSNL players don't bluff that much" or "LLSNL players never bluff the river." There is a lot of bluffing at the rooms I play at.

However I do think it's fair to say that LLSNL rarely RAISE the river as a bluff.

Good point! Glad it was just a theoretical "alternate" line!