Villain in hand is older man with oxygen tank that always complains about dumb ****. In one hand he shoved the turn into a $500 pot with about $400 against tight asian lady and hit his got shot on the river. He also chased another gutshot and hit it on the turn for about $600 pot. Playing about %60 of hands either limping or raising.

Hero has been doing shots and is pretty drunk but has not been playing reckless. Every time I've went to showdown I had it and have taken a lot of pots w/o showdown.

Eff stacks are $1600 Hero covers.

Villain limps UTG - Hero raises to $30 with JJ - Folds around to V who calls.

Flop ($60) 336 with 2 spades. V checks Hero bets $45 V raises to $160 and Hero calls

Turn ($380) Q V leads out for $400 Hero reluctantly calls after a min

River ($1180) is a brick. No flush no straight. V fumbles around grabbing a stack of green and blacks pushing them into the pot. Turns out to be $800

Hero?

I'm only worried about a random 3 or if he was on spade draw and hit Q. The way he bet on the river made me think he was full of **** as he didn't really take any time nor count out how much he bet.

Thoughts on all streets.

V limp-calls, so his range is mostly low pocket pairs, and s/c. He c/r the flop, but this doesn't reduce his range much, given the reads. He could have a SD, FD, Pair, Pair + gutty, set, or even quads.

Never calling turn. Either raising or folding. Usually folding. I don't want to play for 300bbs with 2nd pair, even against maniac old man. AP to river, I guess it's a sigh call, but i wouldn't get here.

at first I agreed but then I re-read the OP and villain description.

As sick as it sounds, we have to call down here. This villain can't resist a draw and the ugly truth is there are just too many busted draws in his range for us to fold a value hand as strong as Jacks against him.

So we make a crying call.

Obvious call after calling the turn. If you were going to fold the turn was where to do so

Against a maniac, when he check/raises flop I'm deciding then if I'm playing for stacks or not. With JJ, unless he has a history of being super-aggro post flop I'm folding. Far too often this is a marginally ahead/way behind situation for hero, just over 50/50 against draws but crushed if villain does have the 3X. If he is super-aggro on the flop and could have any pair, any draw, and some total bluffs, then I may raise the flop with a plan of stacking off. If you do want to play here the best plan varies depending on his range and how the maniac responds to aggression aimed at him. Some will fold to reraises and you can sometimes bluff them or get them off draws when deep enough, others will go all in with ATC once they decide to play a flop and you just have to out value them.

As played, I'm not folding river unless villain doesn't bluff with missed draws on river. Too many ways for him to be on a whiffed flush/straight draw and not enough value hands in his range that beat us.

I like a reraise on the flop to $400....this is where you should be finding out in position where you're at in the hand. With you're reluctant call on the turn....V perceives as weakness and seems to be trying to push you out of the pot on the river which seems to be his game plan. A lot of busted draws out there on the river so I'm calling down as played against particular villain....

If the villain description is accurate, we have to call river.

Like QuadJ said there are just too many whiffed draws in his range and not nearly enough better value hands.

Potential scenario: him having A6, c/ring the flop, and then having no idea what to do so he just bombs off ott and otr.

I think hesitating on your turn call was your worst mistake in this hand. It probably gives him some extra incentive to bluff jam. Then again, I don't believe an old guy on oxygen is going to 3barrel a whiffed draw for 300bb total. The hands you listed about his gutshots are basically irrelevant, unless you can somehow tell us for sure that he plays 600bb pots the exact same way he plays 200-300bb pots.

Meta-game, I don't think I'm adding a whole lot to my bottomline by playing 600bb pots with old people with second pair, calling down 3 streets. Would have folded turn, think he has exactly Qxss or 3x a sick high % of the time.

He would probably think more on the river and size out a more deliberate bet with Qx.

As said above...your decision is on the flop.

My guess is his flop raise is almost never a 3....I mean he puts you on AK they all do, why would he raise a 3 here.

The Q on the turn is not a bad card....I mean he is playing 60% of hands...raising this flop what % of Q do you think his non 3 range has.... And if he has the Q high flush draw, why is he now turning it into a bluff on the river....

now once you decide to play for stacks...you have to decide weather he is a guy to give rope or room.....some of these guys will shove over a flop raise thinking they have fold equity(give him room)...others will fold out but keep bluffing if you give them rope. What I strongly suggest you never do is raise to see where you at against a lag tard.

If your not planning to play for stacks against this guy...or a large pot, consider checking back the flop ...its insane against most low stake live players, but against super lag tards deep without a willingness to commit it probably the most +EV.

I think $800 on the nose is a pretty deliberate bet. If he was just aggro monkey betting a random handful, it's pretty unlikely to end up as exactly $800, no?

I reread the OP, and I guess I overstated when I said bluff jam and 600bb pot. I guess the fact that it was not actually an all-in on the river makes it more likely to be a bluff (or maybe it's the exact opposite)? I dunno man.

Does anyone here actually think they can consistently make profitable decisions in this type of spot? We're playing 2/5 NL against old fools on oxygen, not some freaking super tough 10/20 NL at the Bellagio or something. Don't need to put ourselves into these spots (ahem, turn call, ahem) without a better idea of villain's tendencies going into them.

So he left like $200 back?

I'm calling too but what are your thoughts on that dgi?

if you call flop and the board runs out like this you should be calling turn and river. IMO him betting $800 leaving $200 behind just looks like "im bluffing and I want to save $200 in case I'm wrong". People are saying if you call turn then you need to call river but IMO we have to take this back one more street and say that if we call flop we need to call turn and river when the board runs out like this provided that his betting line doesn't worry us. In this case, it's up to you to decide if he is bombing turn with draws. If he is even somewhat capable of it (which given your example of him jamming turn with a gutty) then it should be a call-down. If we are folding in this hand, it should be OTF.

Don't take shots when you play if you're trying to make money.

I just think that if he did indeed have the Qx flush draw and paired his Q on the turn, he wouldn't be bombing the river like this. So that comfortably removes Qx type hand from his range. This, your call on the turn, and his history, you can't fold the river bet.

He just randomly grabbed his stack of green and blacks and it happened to be $800. No way he counted nor knew how much it was. His stacks were all messed up in odd numbers and such.

Don't let the oxygen fool you as Villain had c/r all in with a gut shot against a tight women player showing strength. He also chased a gut shot for a lot of money and hit on turn.

He may have had a bit more behind thinking back on it but not more than $500.


Ok so I called turn because honestly I thought V was full of **** and that he may have a weaker hand like 6x or PP 77-TT although I think TT is unlikely because he limped pre. I wanted to keep all weaker hands in that might fold if I raised or shoved turn. If he happened to have 3x or Qx then he's getting paid but I thought smaller pairs were more in his range with his flop action. If I raise I think he folds anything I beat and calls with anything that beats me. I called the turn with the intention of calling all rivers.

Results


I know lots of people would assume that old men with oxygen masks have it when they raise but I have played with him before and seen him make weird moves that made no sense often having air or weak hands.