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tough (?) decision against aggressive villain tough (?) decision against aggressive villain

12-12-2015 , 09:01 PM
Game is 10/10 (plays like 1/2 $).

Table dynamics: few deepstacks (300 BB+) and many large pots mainly between V in this hand and another guy at the table who are battling it out.

Ep (2000): new to table. Played a few hands but seems like a rec. No real reads.

MP (1600): also new to table. Been limp calling a few hands but folding post. Seems to play quite fit or fold.

V: 30 ish reg who is at times just awful. Has a loose style and loves to see flops. Played with hero twice this week but no major hands. Example from last session: guy opens in MP to 70. CO calls and V on BTN calls. SB (950) makes it 230. MP calls, CO folds and V calls. Flop comes 924r. SB leads for rest of stack, 720. CO folds and BTN ends up calling and tables 35 off for riveted straight. V is capable of making plays and has not been avoiding high variance spots and making big bluffs.

Hero: young 20s reg who's been talking to most dealers and other regs. Table moved almost 5 hours ago but been majorly card dead. Played only 6-7 hands and taken down most of them with a c bet. Thus seen with a very nitty image.

Hero 3700, V covers.

Straddle. 5 limpers including V in BB. Hero looks down at 9 9 in BB and raises to 220. Here I feel like my image can help me rep a really strong hand and possibly take this down pre. Not many limped pots earlier and I feel like there are not many strong hands in the mix.

EP calls. MP calls. V calls. Four way (!) To the flop.

Flop: 2 4 2

Hero leads for 750. Here I often feel like a have the best hand and want to charge the possible combinations of flush draws + overs that did not raise pre but managed to get here. I feel like I often enough take this down right here. EP folds and MP folds. V tanks for like a minute and then shoves.

Hero?
tough (?) decision against aggressive villain Quote
12-12-2015 , 09:28 PM
It's hard for me to comment as I don't play stakes that high and don't understand the dynamic as it differs from 1/2 and 2/5. What I CAN say is that if this were1/2, id be fine bet/folding unless I know V to be extremely aggressive or skilled. I probably fold here and look for a better spot.
tough (?) decision against aggressive villain Quote
12-12-2015 , 09:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgalosk
It's hard for me to comment as I don't play stakes that high and don't understand the dynamic as it differs from 1/2 and 2/5. What I CAN say is that if this were1/2, id be fine bet/folding unless I know V to be extremely aggressive or skilled. I probably fold here and look for a better spot.
It's not in $ (that's why I wrote it plays like a 1/2 $ game). Sorry if being unclear. Small and big blind are the same size, and it is the lowest game running at the casino. Can be converted almost to 1/2 $.
tough (?) decision against aggressive villain Quote
12-13-2015 , 01:35 AM
Completely read dependant. In a vacuum in majority of time this is a fold. You were UTG or V was SB ? cant both be in bb.
You might also get more responses if you remove the last 0 from numbers in your OP's.
tough (?) decision against aggressive villain Quote
12-13-2015 , 05:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by a12
Completely read dependant. In a vacuum in majority of time this is a fold. You were UTG or V was SB ? cant both be in bb.
You might also get more responses if you remove the last 0 from numbers in your OP's.
I was in BB and V on the BTN. Yeah thought about that, I will probably do so in the future. This feels like I should fold now, but have tough time putting him on hands that make sense. Any ideas?
tough (?) decision against aggressive villain Quote
12-13-2015 , 08:04 AM
hmmmm,
i would have call his shove,
it looks like a flush draw,
if he had any 2 in his hand, wouldnt he have slow play ?
and since u had a tight image, he figures you might have AK AQ type hands,

i think V would have raise any pocket mid or high pairs as hes on button,
tough (?) decision against aggressive villain Quote
12-13-2015 , 10:02 AM
Snap call given stack sizes, pot odds, and the fact the he can have spade draws, flush draws, combo draws, and some overpairs worse than our. And should rarely ever have any better pocket pairs after limping the button and calling our raise after a bunch of people.
If he has any twos in his range here after putting in >10% of his stack, he's a special kind of terrible and you should be drooling to play with him at any chance possible.
tough (?) decision against aggressive villain Quote
12-13-2015 , 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenyiwu
hmmmm,
i would have call his shove,
it looks like a flush draw,
if he had any 2 in his hand, wouldnt he have slow play ?
and since u had a tight image, he figures you might have AK AQ type hands,

i think V would have raise any pocket mid or high pairs as hes on button,
He had been raising a fair amount and I also figured he would have been raising any decent hands on the button, especially with 4 limpers before him. My reasoning was that he was on some type of weak flush draw, and possibly small pocket pairs 44-66.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch
Snap call given stack sizes, pot odds, and the fact the he can have spade draws, flush draws, combo draws, and some overpairs worse than our. And should rarely ever have any better pocket pairs after limping the button and calling our raise after a bunch of people.
If he has any twos in his range here after putting in >10% of his stack, he's a special kind of terrible and you should be drooling to play with him at any chance possible.
He really is a terrible player, which make some spots like this a bit tougher than they should be. However, we are playing effective stacks of 370 BB deep (185 BB with the straddle). V had a stack of about 6500 at the time, and put in 220 pre-flop. OTF there is 950 + my bet of 750 = 1700 in the pot. He is effectively shoving for 2730, so an overbet to the pot. That makes us have to put in 2730 into a pot of 4430 giving us roughly 1.7:1 on a call. We thus need to be best about 38 % of the time to profitably calling.

However, at the time I had problems assigning him a range. Given that he loves to see flops with ATC the flop might as well have hit him. However, given my nitty image and showing strenght, I do not see any reason for him to not, in position, slow play any 2 or pocket 4s. A shove simply does not make any sence with any hand that has us beat.

Is my reasoning completely off? Should this spot have been avoided all along by simply set mining pre-flop, and not bloating the pot OOP?
tough (?) decision against aggressive villain Quote
12-13-2015 , 10:56 AM
He might not be slow playing since you have such a tight image and he probably thinks you have better then what you actually have.

This is read and feel dependent. Maybe he's real bad and has like 66 or some weird combo draw. Or maybe he called with like 32. Who knows, it's just based on what you've seen of him.
tough (?) decision against aggressive villain Quote
12-13-2015 , 10:57 AM
As far as bloating the pot I think it's fine since your C-bets have worked well so far.
tough (?) decision against aggressive villain Quote
12-13-2015 , 02:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCCP
He might not be slow playing since you have such a tight image and he probably thinks you have better then what you actually have.

This is read and feel dependent. Maybe he's real bad and has like 66 or some weird combo draw. Or maybe he called with like 32. Who knows, it's just based on what you've seen of him.
Even though he is able to show up with some weird deuces, I still feel it should be so few combos of those that actually overcall pre.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCCP
As far as bloating the pot I think it's fine since your C-bets have worked well so far.
Okey, this was my reasoning too. And to be honest I did not expect to get 3 callers, the plan was to take it down or at most get it HU.
tough (?) decision against aggressive villain Quote
12-14-2015 , 12:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abusamaka
I was in BB and V on the BTN. Yeah thought about that, I will probably do so in the future. This feels like I should fold now, but have tough time putting him on hands that make sense. Any ideas?
Yeah, I too have difficult time ranging villains found at the lowest stake available. IME in more then 50% of time its ATC. They mostly give it away with their betting lines and sizes though.

Think you played it fine and calling is not a mistake. I d adjust to raise more preflop if your raises aren't getting it HU in this situation.
tough (?) decision against aggressive villain Quote
12-14-2015 , 02:41 AM
Perfect situation and villain to call. He's probably drawing to a flush or straight like his hand history.
tough (?) decision against aggressive villain Quote
12-14-2015 , 08:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by a12
Yeah, I too have difficult time ranging villains found at the lowest stake available. IME in more then 50% of time its ATC. They mostly give it away with their betting lines and sizes though.

Think you played it fine and calling is not a mistake. I d adjust to raise more preflop if your raises aren't getting it HU in this situation.
Yeah, agreed on the ranges. The sizing was big for being the first raise at the table, and more than 2X the pot. But I agree, have to note this on villains. I just feel like limp calling more than 10 % of stacks for them is just mostly going to be awful, so I did not expect them to do that. Guess I over value the abilities of some players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bubonicplay
Perfect situation and villain to call. He's probably drawing to a flush or straight like his hand history.
I just have a hard time seeing two overcards with a flush draw that call 220 pre but does not raise on the BTN. However, at the time I reasoned just like you did
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12-14-2015 , 02:16 PM
This is a WAWB situation on the flop, with thr added fact that 5/13 of the deck is scare cards. The flop is multiway with three other players and of all were OOP.

We make essentially a flop size bet, which means we need to be good 50% of the the time. Which we are! But are wr willing to risk stax on it?

My philosophy lately had been to pot control WAWB and its served me well, and oh god have I been punished when playing WAWB aggressively. I would probably "give up", by checking through, anf trying to see cheap a showdown and constantly reevaluate.

As played I will call AI as it easily be draw and theres so much money in the pot.
tough (?) decision against aggressive villain Quote
12-14-2015 , 02:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by letzplayHU
This is a WAWB situation on the flop, with thr added fact that 5/13 of the deck is scare cards. The flop is multiway with three other players and of all were OOP.

We make essentially a flop size bet, which means we need to be good 50% of the the time. Which we are! But are wr willing to risk stax on it?

My philosophy lately had been to pot control WAWB and its served me well, and oh god have I been punished when playing WAWB aggressively. I would probably "give up", by checking through, anf trying to see cheap a showdown and constantly reevaluate.

As played I will call AI as it easily be draw and theres so much money in the pot.
this is not a WA/WB situation. not. at. all.
tough (?) decision against aggressive villain Quote
12-14-2015 , 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by letzplayHU
This is a WAWB situation on the flop, with thr added fact that 5/13 of the deck is scare cards. The flop is multiway with three other players and of all were OOP.

We make essentially a flop size bet, which means we need to be good 50% of the the time. Which we are! But are wr willing to risk stax on it?

My philosophy lately had been to pot control WAWB and its served me well, and oh god have I been punished when playing WAWB aggressively. I would probably "give up", by checking through, anf trying to see cheap a showdown and constantly reevaluate.

As played I will call AI as it easily be draw and theres so much money in the pot.
As sauhund mentions, I don't think it is a WAWB situation, now that I think about it. Part of the reason why we are considering a call is that villain could have a flush draw, straight draw or a combo draw to wich we are neither way ahead nor way behind.

However, on the other points I agree with you. My plan was not to get 3 callers, and once that happened I was planning on c/f flop. As it came down I just feel like it shouldn't hit our Vs ranges so often, thus the c bet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sauhund
this is not a WA/WB situation. not. at. all.
Agreed, many combos of draws.
tough (?) decision against aggressive villain Quote
12-14-2015 , 03:15 PM
OTF were crushing all ranges and totally are crushed by 2x, how is not a WAWB situation? Paired boards are one of the beat examples of WAWB when yo have an overpair, is it not?

Were way ahead of draws at this moment to.

Ok, I get it. nm, just dont writre this isnt wawb without explaining it.

So this is super tricky. We we could be way behind and we we could be facing a draw, OTF how do we play aginst a hand like that?

Last edited by letzplayHU; 12-14-2015 at 03:21 PM.
tough (?) decision against aggressive villain Quote
12-14-2015 , 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by letzplayHU
OTF were crushing all ranges and totally are crushed by 2x, how is not a WAWB situation? Paired boards are one of the beat examples of WAWB when yo have an overpair, is it not?

Were way ahead of draws at this moment to.

Ok, I get it. nm, just dont writre this isnt wawb without explaining it.

So this is super tricky. We we could be way behind and we we could be facing a draw, OTF how do we play aginst a hand like that?
I mean, if you consider 99 to be "crushing" 2 overs and FD combos..

We are only crushing smaller PPs.
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12-14-2015 , 08:57 PM
This feels like a FD+overcards move. I don't like calling in this spot, because I generally hate flipping for stacks, but there aren't going to be many spots where V puts all his money in like this.

Call.
tough (?) decision against aggressive villain Quote
12-15-2015 , 02:42 AM
hmmmm,
After reading again,
V is totally capable of any two cards,
he might have double gappers suited, or even A2 suited,
and as iraisetoomuch said, if he really had any 2 in his hand, it sucks....

and its deep stack,
for me i would check flop and call if V raises,
and see how it goes from turn....
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