The point isn't about jthe percentage of your stack, it's whether you can overcome the positional disadvantage. I think for $3 it's super close, tbh. Suited I would definitely say it's a call.

I think I (we, you, competent players...) could show a profit in this situation with this hand. Villain stacking off with an over pair once in 100 attempts makes it break even. Seeing as how v tried to do this with a 1 card OESD, this shouldn't be a problem.

I see everyone's point. I'm kind of just playing devil's advocate here. Given that players are 150bb deep, the raise is minuscule and the villain is bad (despite being in position), it could probably be considered correct to fold or call pre it's so close. If you are trying to play as many pots as you can vs a weak villain, I'd say it's a call. If you are specifically waiting for quality hands to get involved, obviously it's a fold.

Agree - HFROG is right. The point is to have a plan going into the hand, and here I wanted to play multiway against monkey tilt. Interesting to view my progression - check out the thread below (my first ever..awww)

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...river-1160151/

Here I enter with weak holdings and no plan. Flop top pair (O sweet lord) and check raise for no apparent reason. Then basically continue firing without a plan. You are safe only playing premiums, but having a plan is what has been helping me - with both good and bad holdings! This site (and the books) are honestly very helpful...

No body said to wait for quality hands. What you need is a quality situation to go to the flop with trash like this. On the BUT or CO if BUT is weak it is a reasonable call so you can chase your dream of making a straight and stacking someone. In BB , it is a night mare hand to play OOP, but you knew that already since you are a competent player.

Ok, I don't mean to be rude but thi is fish thinking in a more advance way. What is your plan? Make a straight. That is bingo poker. That is not planning a hand.

ur right, im wrong

/I give up

Not rude...I agree that not playing the hand removes the necessity to post, and that you can't go wrong by folding the hand. The question that I am trying to work through is if there is value in other parts of the hand - but I also understand that a bad preflop decision can ruin your hand from the get-go if we're not being results oriented.

So there is value in both (HFROG and CYRUS) positions, and you should stick to your guns here because a leak in my game is probably too wide a pre-flop range and weird justifications for it. OOP, not suited, multi-way. - Fair opinion

Set mining is bingo poker too yet I doubt you would counsel against it.

I agree this is a very marginal spot. But we're also talking about $3 here not $10. If this is the worst leak I have then I'll take it.

As I said, I think it's very close. I know back in the day when I could mine my database for thousands of hands it was pretty amazing how many losing hands I had from EP and the blinds I would have sworn were winning hands without the data to show me otherwise.

I do not think that 89o is a "trash hand". I think it's quite decent in the right circumstances. But playing any hand OOP is difficult, so it takes an above average hand to call here. I think the big problem is that without high card value or flush potential, you are never going to flop big draws that can give you a good semi bluff opportunity. Essentially when you continue it's going to be with an OESD that you'll have to hit and get paid off big to make it worth it. All of that is difficult to do OOP.

Quick quiz- $200 effective stacks. Button is a good TAG with a wide stealing range. It folds to him and he makes it $8. SB folds and you are in the BB with 22. Can you call here profitably?

At 1/2, heads up, I'm probably letting the deuces go OOP. No reason to defend blinds in cash games against someone who feels the need to steal $3 at a time.

Isn't one of our goals to focus on the worst players at the table? I'm not dying to do much against the V you've described.

Our goal is to play profitable situations. I'm not going to avoid a good TAG if I have a profitable situation- the problem is that if he's good, we are going to lose money making this call, so it isn't a good situation.

The point I'm trying to make is that while often it is profitable to call and set mine, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes it's profitable to call with 89o, and other times it isn't. The kind of logic being used to justify the call (it's only 1% of my stack) isn't dealing with the right question, which is are you going to be able to extract enough playing OOP when you make your big hand to justify the cost associated with hitting your hand? If that's an easy "yes" for you, you probably aren't thinking about it thoroughly. It is incredibly hard to extract money with big hands OOP, and if you flop a draw you can invest a lot trying to get there and miss.

Everyone loses money from the blinds, and some make it worse by doing stuff like completing ATC from the SB because of "great odds". But in NL the direct odds are way less important than the implied odds, and your odds aren't very good playing OOP. TBH I'd probably call here pre, but I'd be unsure if it was the correct play. It's certainly marginal.

Jeff - I am in agreement with you.

I'm certainly not completing with ATC in the SB, and the preflop play here is definitely dependent on players, stack sizes, relative amount, number of callers, read on the initial raiser, etc.

But when in the presence of monkey tilt: the only response is to limp bad cards then check raise all in bluff donkey crush power poker...right? I'm living proof (except he wasn't all in)