Im in MP with 100BB effective, table is about 8 handed.

Player to my left has been caught bluffing and splashing around as soon as he sat down. He looks anxious and excited to play.

I look down at A8 of clubs and raise to 15. Been folding a lot and playing tight, bit of a cold deck so I figured I can rep a decent hand.

Player to my left calls, BB calls. Pot is 47.

Flop is A77d rainbow. BB checks, I check for pot control, player to my left checks.

Turn is a 10 of diamonds. BB bets 25, I call, player to my left calls. Pot is now 122.

River is a 2 of hearts.

BB bets 35, I call, Player to my left overshoves for about 450 more.

BB folds. Do I ever have a decision here or is this an auto fold?

Fold turn

as played, Fold river the first time

as played, fold river the second time

Id bet flop. We can check A8dd.

Ott we can never fold here once we check flop.

Otr we shouldnt be folding either vs a 1/4 pot bet.

It’s pretty tempting to call since 98 and diamonds missed, and it lolks like you dont have an ace here. Also the fact that he is splashy. He should really only have 77/A7/1010 for value here (he may 3b 1010 pre at some freq). Maybe some slowplayed 7x like 107s/K7s too.

I’d also raise to $20 pre

It’s kind of a weird spot because basically your entire range here otr is medium/weak aces, so it’s kind of difficult/awkward to assign what calls you should have here. I think this is going to be a very live dependent read that may help push it towards a call or fold. Did he seem relaxed? Any tells you may have seen?

I took a good look at him and he seemed frozen. Had no reaction when I started putting my chips together. Was not breathing heavily or anything. Was very still as opposed to other times when he was super fidgety when betting or just in the hand.


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Easy fold. I’d probably play it the same way.

I'd fold, you're probably up against a much better kicker in my opinion.

In what world is 8 a mid kicker when it comes to showdown?

Snap fold ainec, next hand.

Our kicker doesn't matter at all here. Villain doesn't take this line with AQ or similar. He either has trips+ (maybe AT) or airball. OP has played the hand well so far, and now I think he should fold.

BET.THE.FLOP. Just think of how much easier this hand would have been if you just bet?? AP, you are flying absolutely blind, especially vs 2 opponents.

Don't bet the flop for information. This is almost always a bad play that sacrifices EV, and often does not produce the information you seek. If you bet the flop for big sizing, say over halfpot, then you fold most worse hands (the majority of which are dead to runners), and get called or raised by all better hands. If you bet the flop small and get called, then your opponents can have all the better Aces, be trapping with 7x, or they can have worse Aces and pocket pairs, maybe the occasional float. You're still "flying blind." Also, if you bet the flop and the splashy guy raises, you have no idea whether your hand is good.

I am betting for value....the information I get as a bonus. Lots of players will call you on this board with 22-99.

I agree with not betting the flop. I’m not sure what worse hands come along here. On the other hand, I may have folded out Villians TT but I’m not entirely sure that would be the case.

Recently I’ve been checking Ace/King pairs on these dry draw type boards unless I have a certain image at the table...I feel like the showdown value is usually good to play more passivly, and I’m generally comfortable in my hand reading ability to slow play them. I’m not really sure how to balance this approach yet.

I’m a noob at 2-5, been a 1-2 player most of my life and somehow leveled myself into thinking that splashy villain was making a move on the pot because nobody showed strength and he had position.

I made a bad live read and called the overbet. Probably the biggest live game mistake I made in a long time, or maybe ever. He told me he made the overbet hoping someone had a 7. Goes to show how poor his hand reading skills were for him to make that decision.


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Geee whaddya know...he had a pair below Aces that maybe fold OR WE GET VALUE FROM. Instead, we let him draw for free and THEN PAID HIM OFF???

Sorry, but betting this flop is infinitely better than how you chose to play it. You either win a small pot or when he calls, you can play the other streets more carefully. Either way, you probably don't get stacked.

Ok, but lots of people will bet those hands, along with air hands, when you check to them. So how do you make more value?

I make value by betting not by hoping someone does it for me when I am the PFR. You really think the average 2/5 player is betting 22-55 on that board if you check? I don't agree.

Shorn7, do you always bet this flop with Ace pair? Never balance with checking?


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Close to 100%. You don't need to balance at levels below 5/10. All it does is cost you $$ and put you in difficult spots. Just trust in yourself to b/f a ton because players will tell you when you are behind by raising you.

OP made a MISTAKE ON THE RIVER. That's why he got stacked. It's not invetiable for him to lose a huge pot when he checks the flop.

- We're not playing against "the average 2/5 player." We have a read.
- I'm not trying to figure out how to max value against a small portion of Villain's range. KT-KQ alone, all drawing basically dead, make up more of his range than 22-66, 88-TT.

Pretty sure that if OP had bet the flop there is way less chance he actually makes the same decision/mistake on the river. But clearly you believe that the two aren't connected in any way. And I do.

Looks like "our read" stunk

Why fold turn? I can see folding river to the initial bet, probably not a bluff and our kicker sucks as well as having someone behind us. Folding turn seems super nitty after we check back the flop.

The same decision doesn't happen on the river, so it doesn't make sense to talk about it that way. But let's think about how this hand might play if he bet.

So Hero bets let's say 25. Villain probably calls TT. Let's say BB folds. Turn T. Now what? Hero c/f? I doubt it. How does him betting the flop preclude him making big mistakes later in the hand?

How do you figure?

Actually they are 50/50 combinatorically (48 apiece). And against 90%+ of the population, they aren't betting any of these for you.

Also, are you simply checking the T on the turn as well? I mean that only hits 16 of total combos.

No...Hero bets again! If as you say SO much of v's range had overcards to the 7, then we may get value from KT/QT/JT/T9 etc.

Basically, we bet until V gives us a reason to not bet. What you advocate is trapping with top/mid on the off chance that V has overcards and can catch up on the turn. What i am saying is over the long term, that loses value to all the pair hands that would have called one bet and maybe even 2 on a board like this.

I will say it this way...what was the most likely made hand that we are going to flop when we raise with A8 pre? Top pair right? So we actually do flop top pair and now you advocate checking it multiple streets?? Might as well have just folded pre if we were going to do that.