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Old 06-17-2016, 03:06 AM   #1
niceguy22
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Top pair medium kicker oop

1/2 9 handed:

loose passive table preflop
villain is very loose preflop (can be both aggro and passive - limps often). I've seen him cold call my 3bet to 35 with AJ suited on the button. Seems to like playing pots in position and I think he's called 4 out of 6 of my raises preflop (Hes sitting to my direct left). I've seen him bluff but can't remember the circumstance. He's a thinking player and has made logical decisions post flop in the couple hours I've played with him. Seems like an above average, but break even player since he plays a lot of hands.

hero has been more active than most and has been tight aggressive. I've shown down a couple winners

Preflop
utg fish limps
2 folds
hero has $400 QJ and makes it 12
villain has $500 flats
Button flats
fish flats

bout $50 in pot:
J67

Fish checks, I bet $34, villain calls, fold, fish flats.

turn (bout $120)
J678

Hero? hate these spots. I started counting out a bet for about $45, decided it was too small, but didn't want to bet big so I checked. not sure. I wasn't too worried about the fish, but it seemed likely villain could have me outkicked. Anyways, villain bet the $45 that he saw me count out and I folded. Thoughts?
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Old 06-17-2016, 08:17 AM   #2
FoolyCooly
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Re: Top pair medium kicker oop

You don't think this particular V 3-bets AJ pf here with position on you? Depends more on your reads I guess but it seems like you can discount AJ and maybe even KJ. I wouldn't worry as much about being out kicked as much as something like J8 J7 66 77 88. Although as played I'm not really worried at all. You can probably make even a psb OTF with a station fish and primary V who you stated is loose. I would lead the turn and think about a fold only if raised. Makes this spot easier imo.

As played I think you have to call the tiny bet OTT and see a river.
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Old 06-17-2016, 09:18 AM   #3
Case2
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Re: Top pair medium kicker oop

We're up against two villains on a wet board that hits pre-flop callers ranges pretty hard. The turn improved many of the turn calling hands and we don't have position. We've sold our hand as strong pre and having hit the flop and still have two customers.

We obviously thought about betting but then didn't, at which point V behind us did so. The pot is protected and the bet is small, so V is unlikely to be bluffing. Our hand is decidedly marginal for the spot and we haven't under-repped it.

I'm 'bout ready to give it up. From here out we're looking at some RIO.

I don't hate calling the tiny bet here as the last money I put in, but I think folding is better.
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Old 06-17-2016, 09:43 AM   #4
jake
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Re: Top pair medium kicker oop

I think the only potential mistake in the hand was the tell you likely gave off OTT... counting out a bet, showing indecision and then checking makes your hand look marginal at best.

As it was however, I'd really only be concerned about that in a HU pot. The fact that the V had another opponent to worry over - may take pure bluffs out of the equation.

Better to have made a smooth check and then evaluated. I presume that the EP player folded.
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Old 06-17-2016, 09:48 AM   #5
jaymin
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Re: Top pair medium kicker oop

yea i hate spots like this. i think it's pretty marginal, but i'm peeling the turn and check/ evaluating the river. given villain's description and sizing, i think it's certainly possible for him to have weaker Js and a lot of pair + straight draw kind of hands. i think he'd bet a little larger for some protection with a 2pair+ hand. that being said, i don't hate a fold here
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Old 06-17-2016, 10:49 AM   #6
niceguy22
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Re: Top pair medium kicker oop

Folding ott may be best. But Do you guys think that check calling in these spots on the turn is generally worse than just betting out, if i dont think villain will bluff much (cause its multiway)? I contemplated calling, then thought that if i was gonna call, i should have just bet myself.
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Old 06-17-2016, 11:22 AM   #7
FoolyCooly
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Re: Top pair medium kicker oop

Well is he going to check back worse jacks because of fish villain behind?
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Old 06-17-2016, 12:18 PM   #8
callmejc
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Re: Top pair medium kicker oop

You should not be leading into a loose player especially 3 ways with top pair marginal kicker. The board is a little coordinated but only to straights not flushes so even if it checks through it's not a total disaster.

I'd be more inclined to pot control and check-call down most bets by the villain on all 3 streets unless a 9 or 5 came on the river. This gives him ample room to bluff his missed draws and 2nd pairs. When he does have it, however, you've lost a smaller pot compared to if you start calling his raises on turn and river.

As played, I think you really showed a lot of weakness by thinking and checking turn after you lead flop (which almost always means top pair marginal kicker). As a loose aggressive player he will def take advantage of that to bet you off your marginal hands. I'm calling turn and check-calling all rivers that aren't A,K,9,5.
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Old 06-17-2016, 12:41 PM   #9
LifeRebooted
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Re: Top pair medium kicker oop

I would suggest you think more about the range of hands that your opponent can have. You "put him on" precisely four hands: AJ, KJ, AJs, and KJs. As FoolyCooly said, there are a lot of other hands that make sense you need to consider.

That said, you are correct to think you are in a tough spot. I think you need to have a check/call range here and this hand is a good candidate if the other player between the two of you folded. I would check/fold the river unimproved against larger bets.

Also note that you pot size figures are off by as much as 18%. Be careful.
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