It's a 1/1/2 game, but we don't get any higher games here so everyone plays it and it gets quite deep.

MP (350) villain is a very good reg, plays online a lot as well as live, SB (1100) villain is loose while I'm on BB, and I cover both of them.

MP opens for 15, which is a standard opening bet for him, SB calls, I have KJ and decide to call.

Flop (45): 95K
SB checks, I check, MP bets 35, SB raises to 105 we?

Interesting. What range do you put SB on? This looks a lot like an A-high flush draw or a set.

I think I just flat here. It might be weak, but MP is till behind and I don't want to get raised of the best of it right now by SB. In other words, second nut flush draw w/ top pair is not a hand I want to play for $1,100 in a 1/1/2 game.

Are most villains at 1-2, even a 1-2 game that everyone in town plays, 3-betting or calling most suited Aces from the blinds? AIUI, most 2+2ers, if they're going to play it at all, are going to 3-bet it out of the blinds vs a "very good reg" with position on them. Vs my understanding is that most live 1-2 villains will call, excepting AK, maybe AQs.

Even if SB has one of the lower sets, we're only a 70-30 dog at this point. Could SB, since he's loose, be doing this with K9/K5?

Do we want MP hanging around (assuming he overcalls)?

SB is a loose whale, and he can have anything from set to a flush draw, maybe even top pair. I know it's a 1/1/2 game but as I mentioned it doesn't play as 1/1/2, since we don't really have higher limits where I live, everyone plays this game, so you get people playing who would usually play higher limits and it gets pretty deep often. I'm not so concerned about MP since he only has around 300 behind him and I think that often he would have just a K there.

He definitely can be going it with K9/K5 possibly even 95.

That what I was thinking, do I want MP in the hand, and I'm pretty sure that he would fold to a raise, he might have run into a set but most likely best hand he's betting here is a K. Question is do I raise and try to get it heads up now since I don't think that SB will fold to my raise.

Everyone is 3betting them mostly, except fish of course.

Preflop: Fold.

A tough player has made a giant open raise and you are out of position. The loose player will make it harder to steal the pot when you miss the flop, and if you are in a casino this lends even more weight toward folding because you are also fading what is likely a massive rake.

Flop: Fold.

You have a lot of outs to improve, but there's no guarantee your outs are good. The hands your opponents are representing (better Ks, sets, K9, or A high draws) all cut down on your outs. It's possible your hand is good, but against two opponents it's not worth going to the mattresses for the small chance that MP has something like QQ and SB has something like 87s

Just my opinion...

KJs is a reverse implied odds hand. That means it is going to get in a lot situations where it can be way behind, costing you a lot of chips or ahead where nobody is going to pay you off. If you think the MP is raising wide, you want to 3bet. If he isn't, you want to fold. Calling is the worst option. Especially out of position in a really deep game.

As played, people are starting show interest in the pot while you have TPMK and a non-nut flush draw. Let's say the best case scenario happens if you call and the MP folds. The villain gets to watch what you do on the turn. What card are you hoping for on the turn? If it makes the flush and you bet out, he can just LOL and fold if he doesn't have it or raise you if he has the nut flush. If you check, he can just get a free card if he needs it or bet at you if he has you beat. Just cut your losses and fold.

Now that's if the players are "very good" as you state. I have doubts if the MP has a standard raise of 15 in a 1/1/2 game.

The standard raise in my 1/3 game is $15, and my 1/2 game is $12 to $15, so $15 in this game seems reasonable to me.

However, fold pre is probably best -- just tough with a deep loose player in the hand whom you have position on -- unless he's good at it. I still don't mind a flat now that we are here vs. a deep loose player, but only if he'll pay you off if you hit and isn't good enough to bluff with the naked As.

I doubt MP jams unless he has a set or maybe AA/AK.

I am finding the current iteration of today's cash NLH games to be interesting.

Online, a 2.5BB opening raise is still pretty standard. In live games, I have been finding a wider spectrum; the days of '3-3.5X as the standard' are probably long gone and I often see 4X as the minimum and commonly 5X, but that's just my own personal (limited) experience. But, factor in varying rake policies (CA's $1 drop just for dealing out a hand and automatic max rake/promo drop for seeing a flop regardless of pot size vs. other locations with graduated rake/promo drop schedules, although still quite large nonetheless) and opponents' ignorance (for lack of a better term [unawareness?]) of opening raise size relative to effective stack depth, I would guess that it can be to the advantage of astute live players? Compound that with capped BIs of 100BB and you end up with opponents getting themselves into No Man's Land quite quickly.

In LLSNL games like 1/2 & 1/3, I'm not surprised seeing 5X opening raises (fairly standard in my games) and the $5 difference in 'nominal' value not deterring 1/2 players from opening to 7.5X 'because that's what I do in 1/3 when I'm not playing 1/2 anyway'. I have seen very similar conditions recently at Vegas Golden Nugget's 1/2 game.

But I digress.

Sounds like OP's 1/2 game is really playing like a $5BB game considering action and stack sizes, so the 7.5X opener is really more like a 3X opener, but is still ~4% starting effective stack (whether he realizes this or not?).

The more I am learning about 3! & 4! bluffs IP & OOP, I see that KJs does fall into these categories sometimes, especially vs. late position openers, but against nitty TAG opponents OOP, it's probably a fold (albeit a tough one as the over-folding feeling creeps in?), especially with SB dragging along. Otherwise, yes 3! PF (like $70 [3X bet + 1X OOP + ~1X SB caller in between?]). Since MP opener is only $350 effective, low (effective) SPRs would mean accepting pretty trivial stack plays post-flop on many boards excepting complete whiffs, if called HU. If SB still somehow came along, we're treading very, very, carefully short of absolutely smashing the flop.

As played, I lean towards a fold in the spot OP finds themselves - flatting SB's c/r and not knowing if MP re-raises makes it difficult to continue. And short of binking turn with A, I think we would find ourselves never knowing where we're really at and in a bad positional dilemma between SB & MP PF opener.

+1

I don't mind the call depending on how bad/good SB is. All we know is that he's loose. I was assuming bad, but if he's a good loose player, I agree fold is best.

sam, my 1/3 game is amazing. $15 - $25 is completely normal pre, and people limp/call $30+ on a regular basis, even with ~$200 stacks. A few players will call $15 pre and fold to a c-bet with a $50 stack!!!

I've never accused the players in your game of being "very good."

Standard opener is 10 but since table was deep and with couple of whales who often just call you no matter how much you raise, he was opening for 15 which seems perfectly fine to me.

The standard open/raise in my 1/3 game is also $15 +-5. But then, it's also a deep stacked game. Anyway, it's more common than you seem to think.

That just confirms most players in LLSNL aren't "very good." They can get away with it mainly because their opening range is too tight.

I had assumed the better players got away with it because others called too loose. Perhaps you could elaborate a bit?

This. I raise bigger because I know they will call with dominated hands -- they will call w/ J7s. I mean, these guys limp/call almost their entire range for $30+! I want to get as much in there as I can.

OP, what did you do?

calling pf seems perfectly fine here with position on SB.

obviously a tough flop spot. While it's likely thin, in game I call here secretly hoping MP jams.

I called, MP jammed, SB called and I jammed for the rest and SB called. I realize that I didn't play this hand perfectly at all but after SB just calls MP's shove I think I'm happy to get it all in here, I'm definitely not folding with all the money in the pot already and my hand having decent equity against any hand my opponents might have. Thinking more about that hand I think that correct play would be to 3bet pre, although I don't think that calling is that terrible, I'm definitely not folding pre as some people suggested, there's too much value with a whale in SB.

The final result is - MP had KJo and SB had K9dd and I got my flush on the turn and the river bricked.

My final thoughts are that though I agree that I played this hand not particularly well I think it wasn't as bad considering we have a whale in the pot with a deep stack. Also, no offense but I don't understand how so many people here can say to just fold this hand pre, MP is a decent online player so he won't have a super tight opening range from MP, it's a 3bet if anything, maybe call occasionally playing live (not online obviously) and for people who are saying that opening bets sizing is way too big I have doubts that they even play live cash games or at least live cash games on lower limits.

Glad you binked Not sure about the odds of gii there, though. You need about 2:1, right?

RE: The standard raise in 1/3 of $15-$20 (5-7bb).

I still don't understand what Venice means and I agree with Java. Perhaps this is a subtle point, perhaps not. However, I suspect that Venice is saying we should be raising more hands than just premium and varying the raise size.

But I would like clarification.

It is going to depend on your preflop strategy is. If you are only raising JJ+, AK, then making your raises big is fine because

However, you're rarely going to have initiative in a hand 97% of the time, which means you're most likely winning hands by having the best hand. To win more than your fair share of the hands, you need to win some without having the best hand. The easiest way to do that is raise pf.

Many NLHE books have starting hand guides. There are going to be hands in there that don't dominate other hands. Ed Miller in "The Course" recommends raising J7s on the button for example. The plus side of raising much wider is that there is virtually no flop that you couldn't have smashed. You'll collect the easy. money on the flop (the main advantage of down betting the flop, too). At the same time, there will be times when the villain isn't going to fold and you're going to have to. You want to make those hands you have to fold be cheaper.

So, you raise bigger with strong hands and smaller with weak hands or just smaller all the time?

I still like raising the same amount -- $15 -- regardless (except limpers) of position and hand strength, but I do mix it up -- which I get flamed for on this forum because I occasionally raise with marginal hands, but almost always in position. The point is, my player pool doesn't adjust -- they always think I have a strong hand, so I can crush them when I connect with a marginal hand, especially when they try to bet me off of it

I'm just not afraid to play bigger pots vs. these guys -- I prefer it. Vs. random players, I'd adjust.

This mostly works when my 1/3 is playing $100-$400 stacks (in other words like a 1/3), but not when most of the stacks are $500-$1,000+ (more like a 2/5). It has become common for players to call $20-$35 cold preflop with things like 75o, hit a pair and continue. Unfortunatly, over the last couple weeks, they've been hitting trips, two-pair, or something else that beats an overpair.

I think the adjustment necessary is to exercise some pot control, mostly on the turn, but exactly when and where is difficult.

Edit: and also checking the turn to get them to call the river, trying to snap off a bluff.