Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Top pair bad kicker - thin river value? Top pair bad kicker - thin river value?

10-31-2015 , 04:47 PM
1/3 - 10 handed - most of the table is loose and bad

Hero UTG (300) A3 limps first in

Folds around to button

Button (750) Raises to 15

Blinds fold

Hero calls

Flop AQ6

Hero checks, button bets 20, hero calls

turn 2 not a diamond

Hero checks, button checks

River 8 no flush on board

Hero?

Reads:

Hero. Card dead, playing solid. Has been making big raises and 3 bets. Probably seen as aggressive. Have been playing 1 hand an orbit or so.

Button. Solid basic TAG style. Has been having a good day playing ABC style on a weak table. Understands position. Button raising range vs a limp should be pretty wide.

Hero would usually fold A3s under the gun but I called here because there were lots of limped family pots in this game, and I figured opening for a raise would just isolate me against hands that had me dominated. Was comfortable drawing out of position in this game.

Specific question:

river play - lead with a bet for thin value? Plan - b/f? or plan for c/c? Any other thoughts on other streets welcome.
Top pair bad kicker - thin river value? Quote
10-31-2015 , 04:59 PM
Fold to the pf raise. Our hand plays terribly OOP against his range. The $2 limp was speculative, no need to throw away $13 of good money.

100% b/f the river. V is unlikely to have an ace after checking back the turn. I'd go $20-$35.
Top pair bad kicker - thin river value? Quote
10-31-2015 , 05:32 PM
fold pre twice
Top pair bad kicker - thin river value? Quote
10-31-2015 , 07:31 PM
Preflop limp is OK some of the time if the table is really limpy and few hands are raised but it's a trivial fold to the raise. He may be raising you wide but he still has a huge advantage. Exactly because of hands like this, where you hit top pair and still have no idea where you are in the hand. It is hard to make any money in this situation so calling preflop ends up being -EV even if villain is raising a wide range.

As played I like a bet on the river. When villain checks turn he probably doesn't have a big ace and you can both get better weak aces to fold and get worse made hands to call. Obviously bet/fold, if your raised your mostly crushed.
Top pair bad kicker - thin river value? Quote
11-01-2015 , 09:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MirrorMirror
1/3 - 10 handed - most of the table is loose and bad

Hero UTG (300) A3 limps first in.
Sounds about right.
Top pair bad kicker - thin river value? Quote
11-01-2015 , 01:52 PM
Fold pre to raise your hand plays well multiway, but Hu oop it's pretty bad. I always limp suited aces at passive tables just bc of the implied odds associated w going flush>flush but I've been thinking more and more about not doing it at 100bb.

River I would value bet for sure prob $30 or so don't want to bet too big unless you're leveling here, keep the Qx and KK Bluff catchers in. This would be b/f 100% without some pretty serious reads and history.

Last edited by sungar78; 11-01-2015 at 01:54 PM. Reason: Wow. I didn't need to be here.
Top pair bad kicker - thin river value? Quote
11-01-2015 , 06:11 PM
Fold pre! Oh you've been told that 4 times already

Agree with all above really.

I seriously doubt villain has a decent ace. You look like you are drawing at a flush from the flop so villain would have bet the turn with his big AX for sure. Where I differ with above is I think V bets even his weak AX on the turn to make you pay to draw but also because he is in position so he can expect to get a free showdown on all non diamond rivers. He doesn't have to fear losing a big pot with a weak ace so unless he views hero as frequently bluffy OOP with missed draws I doubt he ever checks an ace on this turn.

Therefore I'm tempted to try levelling him and go for a pot sized bet on the river. It is a tricky one though because we need villain to think hero is capable of turning a missed draw into a bluff but simultaneously we need villain to not think hero is such a habitual bluffer that V has taken steps to trap him by checking the turn with top pairs intending to use them as bluff catchers.

Thoughts?
Top pair bad kicker - thin river value? Quote
11-02-2015 , 03:15 PM
I don't mind the limp in to try and see a cheap multiway flop (although honestly it is probably on the small leaky side). Calling the raise HU OOP is horrendous and a *huge* leak, imo.

Since we're seen as aggressive, I'd probably bet/fold the river. My guess is this guy is rarely going to have anything in his range worth thinly betting, and a bluff by him at this point makes no sense, so if we check and he bets we're most likely up against a better pot controlling hand. But with an aggro image we might get paid off by a wide range.

GcluelessNLnoobG
Top pair bad kicker - thin river value? Quote
11-02-2015 , 03:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragequit99
Therefore I'm tempted to try levelling him and go for a pot sized bet on the river. It is a tricky one though because we need villain to think hero is capable of turning a missed draw into a bluff but simultaneously we need villain to not think hero is such a habitual bluffer that V has taken steps to trap him by checking the turn with top pairs intending to use them as bluff catchers.

Thoughts?
I think I'm ok with the PSB if we have an aggro image and could definitely level him into making a bunch of hero calls for good fat value. Note that I think there is an ok chance we run up against a better pot controlling A, but that's the risk we run calling preflop in the first place.

GcluelessNLnoobG
Top pair bad kicker - thin river value? Quote
11-02-2015 , 03:23 PM
Pre is bad. Certain tables i can understand a raise pre but limping to call a raise OOP is horrible. AP sure put a small bet out there.
Top pair bad kicker - thin river value? Quote
11-02-2015 , 08:17 PM
Fold pre the second time.
Limp pre the first time only with solid reads on how your villains will play pre flop and post flop. Even then it is likely questionable and possible still not +EV.

Bet 25/30 on the river.
Should get looked up by Qx and KK. Sometimes JJ/TT also.
Top pair bad kicker - thin river value? Quote

      
m