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Old 06-16-2021, 07:28 PM   #1
Riversnapper
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Spade Top pair with back door flush draw

2/3/6 live cash game 8 handed

+1, MP & Hero(BTN) all flat 6 straddle, BB raise to 35 ,all called

4 way to the flop


FLOP T♥ 6♦ 4♠ POT 140

All check to Hero(K♠T♠) bet 100 ,only MP call


TURN 9♠ POT 340

MP check
Hero bet 200
MP raise to 650(with 400 behind)

I have top pair and back door flush draw, (if I call 650 I only have 300 behind)

I have mostly put him on 44, 66, 46,T9,some random T4 T6 96 94 as well (as he called my utg open with Q4 at BB earlier today ,a very loose player)
I don't think he is capable of bluffing in this spot so I knew I am behind, in the other hand I still have decent equity again the hand I have put him on


Question:
should I call, shove or fold?

Thanks for any thoughts!
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Old 06-16-2021, 08:03 PM   #2
Ranma4703
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Re: Top pair with back door flush draw

Raise pre unless you have a really good reason not to, like the limpers limp/reraise often.
Betting the turn is kinda bad, limp/callers have a lot of OS connectors in their range and 78 and 9T just pulled ahead of you, and you have a hand that (1) really only wants one more bet to go in and (2) wants to realize it's equity. Can you explain your thinking around why you bet the turn?
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Old 06-16-2021, 08:04 PM   #3
sixsevenoff
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Re: Top pair with back door flush draw

I think pre is a pretty big mistake. I would raise to $40 here and there's an argument for going even larger. There is significant dead money in the pot and we just picked up a good hand IP. Picking up $23 is a fine result, and we're happy to play this hand IP. The instances in which we are overlimping should be few and far between.

Otf I would just bet $50. We have a good hand, need a little bit of protection,

Just fold turn. It sucks throwing this pretty of a hand away, but this is a spot where we're ahead like 1% of the time or less. We need 31.25% equity to continue and we just don't have it, even in best case scenario when we're behind.
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Old 06-16-2021, 08:05 PM   #4
sixsevenoff
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Re: Top pair with back door flush draw

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranma4703 View Post
Raise pre unless you have a really good reason not to, like the limpers limp/reraise often.
Betting the turn is kinda bad, limp/callers have a lot of OS connectors in their range and 78 and 9T just pulled ahead of you, and you have a hand that (1) really only wants one more bet to go in and (2) wants to realize it's equity. Can you explain your thinking around why you bet the turn?
Betting the turn seems fine... We're charging draws/denying equity, worse Tx can call
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Old 06-16-2021, 08:08 PM   #5
dozer
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Re: Top pair with back door flush draw

I'm OK with flatting pre if the other flatters are known to 4-bet, or if you anticipated a 3 from the blinds. KTss isn't THAT good.

Love the flop bet. Don't love the turn bet. Hate the check-raise on the turn. Think you have to fold it up if you know you're behind.
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Old 06-16-2021, 08:18 PM   #6
JayKon
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Re: Top pair with back door flush draw

Raise pre from the button is preferred, but calling isn't horrible.

Betting flop is good both for value and to deny/charge equity.

I don't like the turn bet. You have a good hand, with a better draw. Seems like a spot for a little pot control. Hero's hand isn't strong enough to be protected from draws.
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Old 06-16-2021, 10:43 PM   #7
drowski
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Re: Top pair with back door flush draw

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsevenoff View Post
Betting the turn seems fine... We're charging draws/denying equity, worse Tx can call
Betting turn is awful. Literally lighting money on fire.

We were super multi way and this opponent called the flop.

Betting flop makes sense because we get to check back a lot of turns. Sure v has some draws but his range has a ton of hands that will cr and make us fold our equity.

I say it in every thread where people use "charging draws" as their main reason for betting but I'll say it again: it is an awful bet if you're best reason to bet is charging draws.

This isn't a three street or thick value hand. It's a one street value and maybe bluff catch the river if we don't improve type of hand. We also aren't denying equity for sh*t on this turn. If he has a straight draw we have 25% of his outs covered. He doesn't have two overs. What are we denying equity to?

Betting turn just bloats the pot when we have a one pair hand

As played we need to fold. We don't have the odds to call even if we always get it all on the river when we hit a flush and he never has Axss

Last edited by drowski; 06-16-2021 at 10:49 PM.
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Old 06-16-2021, 10:48 PM   #8
sixsevenoff
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Re: Top pair with back door flush draw

I suppose the 9 isn't the greatest card in the world. I can't imagine checking AsTs here though. KsTs is closer than I originally thought. I think you're way off on how stationary people are though. I think the two biggest mistakes are flop size and limping. The flop size makes it harder to get more value, but it's a 2, sometimes 3 street hand. AT I would go for three streets on a lot of run outs, then again, I'm never overlimping, nor am I betting so big. It's ridiculous to say that betting this turn is lighting money on fire though.
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Old 06-16-2021, 10:54 PM   #9
sdfsgf
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Re: Top pair with back door flush draw

Flop bet is too big I think. With this size we’re letting them off the hook with most hands we beat. I’d go $50 planning to call a raise if we think the small sizing might have induced spaz.

I don’t see a problem with betting turn in position as my last money in the pot without improvement (i.e., checking back blank rivers and folding to a turn c/r or river lead). I’d go 2/3, which would be ~$160 if we had bet 1/3 on the flop.
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Old 06-16-2021, 11:04 PM   #10
fatmanonguitar
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Re: Top pair with back door flush draw

I agree with a smaller flop bet. $75 seems right. Dry flop. Our value targets are marginal one pair hands worse than ours. Our hand benefits from folding out overs and gutters etc and this is likely accomplished with a small bet as well.

I don’t hate barreling turn but would feel better about it had we bet smaller on the flop as it widens their calling range as mentioned above. I prefer a check as played however. We have overpairs and some sets but that turn card is more likely to improve V’s flop calling range than our c-bet range. Unimproved we do not have a 3-street value hand and we hate to get c/r and denied our equity. It would be a disaster to fold to an AsXs turn semibluff. Unimproved we have a decent river bluff catcher after checking turn.
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Old 06-17-2021, 12:12 AM   #11
Riversnapper
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Re: Top pair with back door flush draw

Thank you all for the comment, I agree the turn bet is horrible, I should check here 100% to realise my equity and pot control.

My initial thoughts on betting the turn is to get value from JT QT and T8 T7 86 76 pair with a gutter type of hand, and check all the river unless I hit a flush. The problem by betting the turn will blow up the pot quickly which I'm not suppose to do with just top pair, also I was trying to setup a river jam when I hit flush that is also another reason for my initial turn bet, by recap the hand I believe with less than 3 spr I'm still able to get loads of value when I hit flush with minimal risk of not betting the turn
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Old 06-17-2021, 09:54 AM   #12
Ranma4703
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Re: Top pair with back door flush draw

You can bet the turn with KT, I just wouldn't do it with the backdoor flush draw - cause without the BDFD, you have an easy bet/fold on the turn
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Old 06-17-2021, 11:06 AM   #13
gobbledygeek
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Re: Top pair with back door flush draw

So it sounds like we're all very deep here, possibly $1000+?

I'm fine with overlimp after 2 limpers. Raising is also probably fine, and this deep might be better since we won't be setting up any awkward commitment SPRs. Even though it looks like we're extremely deep and we have the Button, I'm not completely in love with our preflop call of the raise (but don't hate it either).

Flop is extremely dry, so I don't think there is any reason to bet so large. I'd probably only go 1/3 PSB.

I would probably lean to a turn check back. It starts controlling the pot (which is starting to get way out of hand for the strength of our hand). We have an extremely showdownable hand that is cool with just getting in one more bet (either as a call or a bet) UI. We'd hate to be blown off our flush draw equity. We start inducing bluffscatching situations with a hand that isn't that vulnerable if it is ahead.

If we don't think he's ever bluffing then obviously shoving is horrendous as we have no FE (the only reason to shove).

There are times when only our flush draws outs are live (and reduced at that), and we don't have the odds nor the stack behind to continue. So in those times, trivial fold.

So the only question is how often our other outs (to trips and top two pair) will be good enough. All told it is a pretty meh situation and probably a fold.

But we really just shouldn't have gotten ourselves into this situation.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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