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Top 2 against a nit Top 2 against a nit

08-11-2019 , 10:12 PM
This is an odd hand from a 2/5 home game.

I've been playing very LAG but getting there. Table has been commenting on how I'm unbeatable while groaning about my constant raises.

V is an old Asian woman who plays extremely tight. Less than 15% of hands. She'll only open raise with AQ+/JJ+ while she'll limp/call pocket pairs and KQ+.

She has around $1.2k to start the hand (I cover).

1 player limps in front (loose passive in MP), she limps along from CO, and I look down at QJcc on the button. I raise to $25 (my standard so far). Both players call.

Flop ($75): QdJh4d

Checks to me and I bet $60. MP folds and V raises to $160.

This is where the hand starts getting weird for me. She never raises draws/bluffs so I'm having a hard time putting her on a hand here. Should I be 3-betting here?

I just call.

Turn ($395): 7s

She bets $250 and I call.

River ($895): 3d

She checks, I check it back.

Thoughts on all streets appreciated.
Top 2 against a nit Quote
08-11-2019 , 10:24 PM
I would go $30 pre, but definitely raising.

I like flop sizing and calling the raise. I really don't understand why we would 3 bet the flop if she never raises draws or bluffs. I would say her most likely hands are 44, QJ, KQ, and maybe she limped AQ with a limper already in the pot. If we 3 bet she'll only continue with 44 and QJ.

Turn is standard after flop action.

River I would go for the value bet. She has more combos of hands that we beat than lose to, assuming read that she never has a flush is correct. Having to target KQ and AQ I go $300.
Top 2 against a nit Quote
08-11-2019 , 10:25 PM
I think you played it well. I might go for thin value otr. It looks like she may have tptk or overpair. I'd hate to lose value against a hand that will definitely pay me off.

Last edited by bailashtoreth; 08-11-2019 at 10:42 PM.
Top 2 against a nit Quote
08-11-2019 , 10:42 PM
So you say you know her well enough to have her preflop range dialed into a VERY specific range, but don't know what she could have when she check/raises the flop? Although your preflop range doesn't make a lot of sense either. You say she limps KQ+? So does that mean she doesn't play any KJ or QJs? That range is just way too specific and not positional.

As for her hands, we can cross out QQ/JJ since she limped pre (only one combo of each anyways). We'll give her 3 combos of 44. How about the other QJ hands? Folding them when limped to in the CO seems tight, even for the nittiest nits. Lets give her most combos of that, so 3 left. So her 2pair + range is 3 combos of chops and 3 combos of you're crushed. Not great. So this really comes down to does she have any KQ? The flop x/r is weird for a hand like that, but something she could definitely be doing on a wet board where she thinks she has the best hand. Even if we just give her the suited comobs, we have the equity needed to call down.

I wouldn't 3-bet the flop. If it's *NEVER* a draw (a conclusion I would not come to easily, I'll trust your read though) then raising is the worst option. Nothing better than you is ever folding, and worse hands that might otherwise bet may decide to fold in the face of a 3-bet. Call down or fold are the only reasonable options. I'd say this hand is a fairly trivial call down.

The real question is the river. It's a safe bet her range is still 44/QJ/KQ. The real question is can we get a call from the KQ hands? I think I'd go small OTR. Maybe like $200 or something that is too good of a price for Qx to fold.
Top 2 against a nit Quote
08-12-2019 , 01:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koss

The real question is the river. It's a safe bet her range is still 44/QJ/KQ. The real question is can we get a call from the KQ hands? I think I'd go small OTR. Maybe like $200 or something that is too good of a price for Qx to fold.
You think an "extremely tight" player is going to check/raise KQ on this flop, continue to blast the turn with TPGK, and then when the front end flush comes in on the river call a $200 value bet?

I can't fathom KQ being part of their range, and if somehow it was, there is no way they are paying off this river.
Top 2 against a nit Quote
08-12-2019 , 02:26 AM
Value betting river all day, probs size smaller with the flush coming in to get hero'ed by good Qx, trappy AA/KK
Top 2 against a nit Quote
08-12-2019 , 02:29 AM
If probably just fold the flop.
Top 2 against a nit Quote
08-12-2019 , 03:02 AM
She probably has AQ.

If she cant have a draw here I just bomb the river trying to get QJ to fold. Maybe she hero calls with a set, you should have a read on her if she turns into a calling station with big hands on flush boards.
Top 2 against a nit Quote
08-12-2019 , 04:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AAJTo
She probably has AQ.

If she cant have a draw here I just bomb the river trying to get QJ to fold. Maybe she hero calls with a set, you should have a read on her if she turns into a calling station with big hands on flush boards.
Lol turning top 2 into a bluff.. I love it. :P her range is QJ/44 only if your read is right OP, I dont mind a fold OTF agaisnt a huge nit.
Top 2 against a nit Quote
08-12-2019 , 09:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koss
So you say you know her well enough to have her preflop range dialed into a VERY specific range, but don't know what she could have when she check/raises the flop? Although your preflop range doesn't make a lot of sense either. You say she limps KQ+? So does that mean she doesn't play any KJ or QJs? That range is just way too specific and not positional.

As for her hands, we can cross out QQ/JJ since she limped pre (only one combo of each anyways). We'll give her 3 combos of 44. How about the other QJ hands? Folding them when limped to in the CO seems tight, even for the nittiest nits. Lets give her most combos of that, so 3 left. So her 2pair + range is 3 combos of chops and 3 combos of you're crushed. Not great. So this really comes down to does she have any KQ? The flop x/r is weird for a hand like that, but something she could definitely be doing on a wet board where she thinks she has the best hand. Even if we just give her the suited comobs, we have the equity needed to call down.

I wouldn't 3-bet the flop. If it's *NEVER* a draw (a conclusion I would not come to easily, I'll trust your read though) then raising is the worst option. Nothing better than you is ever folding, and worse hands that might otherwise bet may decide to fold in the face of a 3-bet. Call down or fold are the only reasonable options. I'd say this hand is a fairly trivial call down.

The real question is the river. It's a safe bet her range is still 44/QJ/KQ. The real question is can we get a call from the KQ hands? I think I'd go small OTR. Maybe like $200 or something that is too good of a price for Qx to fold.
Maybe my range is overly specific but the point was she will happily limp/call strong broadways while open raising big pairs.

I doubt she ever raises KQ here. AQ is the bottom of her raising range OTF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AAJTo
She probably has AQ.

If she cant have a draw here I just bomb the river trying to get QJ to fold. Maybe she hero calls with a set, you should have a read on her if she turns into a calling station with big hands on flush boards.
She's definitely capable of folding but she also considers me a big bluffer. That being said, I could see this one getting through considering my hand looks quite a bit like a draw (since I would fold almost all my made hands to her flop raise).

Not sure I see much benefit in trying to bluff her off a chop though. Maybe it gets through, but it also just maximizes my losses against 44.

I honestly though about folding OTF but that's just ridiculously tight when we're chopping a good portion fo the time and she might occasionally do this with AQ.
Top 2 against a nit Quote
08-12-2019 , 09:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by krilleater
Not sure I see much benefit in trying to bluff her off a chop though. Maybe it gets through, but it also just maximizes my losses against 44.

I honestly though about folding OTF but that's just ridiculously tight when we're chopping a good portion fo the time and she might occasionally do this with AQ.
The benefit is that you get the entire pot instead of half of it. If you are 100% sure she doesn't have a flush like your read says and by description of V shes a person who is terrified of flushes if she doesnt have one. It doesn't matter what you have in this spot. Putting her all in is a little over a PSB. You might get called by AQ, you might get called and chop and those are the biggest parts of her range here. A set is 5 combos, QJ is 4 combos. She will probably fold all of that on the river.

If she thinks you are bluffing then a set and AQ are pretty much the same hand to her.
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