Blinds: $2/$3, 9 handed cash game.

Starting stacks:

Me: $750

Villain: $300

I look down at pocket Queens ( and ) in early position.

I raise to $12 (standard pre-flop raise at this table had ranged anywhere between $12 - $20).

Villain calls from the cutoff, and the big blind calls.

Villain is a new player to the table and I haven’t played with him before. 

Flop comes A, 6, 10.

Big Blind Checks.

I C-bet $20.

Villain insta-raises to $55, seemingly without even thinking anything through and with a lot of finesse.

Big Blind Folds.

I think for about 20 seconds then decide to call and see how the turn goes down.

At this point, I don’t necessarily put him on a flush draw. IMO flush draws check/call most of the time in this game. Some even might raise big, and a small amount will even min-raise. Rarely do I see a 3x raise.

I also felt that the line I've taken so far is relatively strong.

Turn comes 8.


I check.

Villain now bets $90.

The line that he had chosen at this point wasn’t making much sense to me. On the flop he was trying to represent a large ace, two pair, or a set.

Then on the turn he seems to be trying to represent the flush maybe?

So I decided to look him up one more time by calling the $90. Again, I'm very suspicious of his line.

River comes a Jack.


I check the river (should I ever do a blocker bet here?)


Sure enough, villain shoves for his remaining $125.

Eventually after about a minute of thinking I made a tough call.

I waited for him to show his hand. But he only showed a jack (I forget which suit, but I know it wasn't a ).

I am curious if you think my call on the flop, turn, and the river was too risky.

I am also curious what you think he had? I was guessing possibly King and a Jack?

Obviously, the result was good this time. But in this spot do you think am I losing money in the long run? 


Thanks for your input!

-Justin

I prob would fold flop. There are plenty of draws but many of them are huge and prob want the bb juicing up the pot.

I think you run into sets, at and maybe ak.

I'll grant that the play was pretty weird after that.

Kj w kc would be a fairly reasonable hand.

Why are you raising small ish pre if the "standard" raise size is $12 to $20? If $20 is getting calls just raise to $20.

As played, don't be a station. What range are you putting villain on when you raises you? You said the line you've taken is strong, which I disagree cause it's simply a preflop raise and a cbet. But if you think your line is strong and he's still raising why would you call? I would've folded flop. A raise on this flop is gonna be mostly polarized to big draws and hands that have you crushed. I would even fold a lot of Ax if they don't bluff often and even AK if they never bluff. The fact that it's a three way pot makes QQ even more of a fold. Calling river would be atrocious. Just because you won this hand doesn't make it a good call.

Also don't ever post results in the OP. It'll skew the answers.

This HH shows why the game are still good at LLSNL.

Would you have thought this a good call if the villain turned over Ax? That's the answer to your question. Because lots of players, including 2+2ers would have played Ax the same way.

+1 to “why bet 12 pre if up to 20
Is standard?”

Is it standard these days to cbet 2/3 pot w QQ on an A-high flop multiway? this would
Be in my check/evaluate range. If I did bet, it would be small (15 max) to keep ranges wide.

Even before reading results I was thinking this hand was a train wreck, beginning from the call of the raise on the flop. Unless you have some good read that V is FOS, this is a snap fold. A naked ace is the bottom of most Vs' raising range on this type of board. That leaves out sets and two pair. I believe you got lucky that this was one of the times V was bluffing. I wouldn't make it a habit to call down with QQ and KK on A-high flops hoping to bluff catch.

Thank you for your feedback! I too fold here, 90% of the time. But my "spidey sense" was def tingling. So based on wanting to keep a BIT of balance, and also because of my live read of the player is what caused me to continue with the hand.

Doesnt Ax check turn a lot after raising flop? I think this is why OP said line didnt make sense. Venice has implied people will fire the turn with Ax, but I think thats the minority

Obv flop is an easy fold for us, but I dont see much wrong with peeling one street to see Turn card and villians' reaction to it if we felt for some reason that V can and does get out of line.

And once we do that and he continues to bet on a flush turn, its for sure that with this line his range will contain more weaker holdings than it did on the flop

I tend not to size my pre-flop raises based on the strength of my hand, rather my position instead; and also based on how many players (and who) have entered the pot already. It is a strategy that I have used for many years and it has worked well for me.

I am not normally a station. I would normally fold on the flop here to most players. But again, something was very suspicious. I mentioned above the range of the strong hands that I believe a player would raise with. But I also believe that there are just as many bluffs / semi-bluffs in his range as there are made hands (if not more possibly).

The reason I feel like my line here is strong by the end of the flop is because I raised Pre-flop, Bet the flop, then called a raise on the flop. If this doesn't signify strength then I don't know what does.

After I C-bet the flop, villain raises me, the BB folds. I no longer have to worry about him. So by the time I have to make a real decision, the third player doesn't really come into play in my head. Especially because the BB and I have had a lot of experience playing together, and I know he has a lot of respect for my pre-flop raise, and C-bet on the flop.

And I do tend to agree that just because I won this hand this time, doesn't make this a good call in the long run. I rarely play a hand like this. So much that I went online, created a 2+2 account, and posted about it to get feedback. I really only continued with the hand past the flop because I felt like I had a good read on THIS particular hand and the player. Something just didn't make sense, and it's hard to put into words.

Thank you for your input.

I don't think villian bets the turn, then shoves the river with only Ax here. To me, this doesn't make much sense. I think that is a worse play than me calling his river bet. But that's just me.

Of course it's possible that he could have that. But I believe most AX check the river after I've showed strength by calling the flop raise, and calling the turn bet, especially with his stack size on the river.

He is most likely to have a set, or aces up. And if he had either of these hands on the flop or the turn, I still feel like a check on the river would be the most likely route he'd take with those hands, considering the board at this point.

But again, that is just MY read on the situation, while it was happening. To me, his line just didn't make much sense.

And in response to your first comment of "This HH shows why the game are still good at LLSNL," this doesn't mean I play every single hand like this. This is only one interesting hand that I decided to publish. It was a very unique situation for me. I've been making a living playing 2/3, 3/5, and 5/10 for just under 20 years now.

What's the difference between C-betting $15 and $20. Not much IMO.

The big blind is a nit, he would only have called AJ or better.

I feel like I have to bet something here to get a feel for where the villain was at.

And it was because of the way he insta-raised, the size of his raise, and the way he put the chips into the pot that made me lean towards calling.

just c/f the flop and save yourself the aggravation

Playing a hand like this is definitely far from a habit of mine. As mentioned above, I too normally fold here.

Typically I will take live tells with a grain of salt, and don't base my decisions on live reads alone.

However, I felt that there were three signs all at once. The way he put the money in the pot, the speed at which he raised (instantly), and the way he splashed the money into the pot (this is what I meant when I said "with finesse"). This is what had me call on the flop, and plan to re-evaluate based on what happens on the turn.

The flush on the turn can hit my range just as much just as much as it hits his range (if not more) IMO.

So a bet of $90 here was yet another red flag for me.

Ok so if this was based on a live read why even post on the forum? Obviously flop is a standard fold and you know we are gonna tell you that.
I’m fine with the play if you think he’s weak but we weren’t there so it’s tough for us to say anything about the play if it’s read based

:grunch:

I do not like the way this hand was played at all.

-I probably raise more PF to make up for being in poor position.

-I'm probably a MUBSY old man, but i'm dumping this when i get raised on the flop without a read. Your hand is in complete ROI territory. There is not a single card that can come on the turn that you're happy about.

-When you call the flop raise, what's your plan for the turn? c/f? b/f? screwplay? Winning players don't call raises OOP to "see how the turn goes down". They think through the current situation and plan how they will react to the different turn cards that can come.

-As played, c/f the turn. What do you think V has that you are calling this bet? If he raised the flop with an A to get value from a fd you're already way behind. If he raised the flop with a f/d, you're behind. Big combo draws like KsJs or 9s7s? behind!

-The VAST majority of LLSNL Vs are not bluffing you. They just aren't. When they have a hand, they let you know. This V is making it very clear that he can beat 2nd pair.

-On the river you're getting 3.6-1 which look enticing but you're good basically never. you have second pair on an extremely wet board where V has shown strength on every street. Fold your damn hand. I cannot think of a single hand in V's range that you can beat at this point. Not a single hand.

I simply wanted to get other's point of view.

It was an "out-of-the-ordinary" hand for me.

Somehow throughout the hand I just KNEW I was good. I felt it down to my bones. But I can't exactly put it into words how I knew. I like to see things from other's perspectives, in hopes that I can figure out exactly what my gut was telling me.

I am simply trying to extract as much value (knowledge) as I can from this situation.

I am new to the forums. So if I published this in the wrong section I apologize.

Betting the turn with a bare A is probably the correct line for V.

-You can still get value from KxKc QxQc, JxJc (maybe)
-You bet to deny equity to a redraw
-You might get a better A to fold
-Increases the chance you get checked to on the river if you want a free showdown
-You can shove for value on the river and give your opponent enticing odds to call with second best if you have a made hand or improve on the river.

On the flop, I'm still ahead of even K, J. 52.73% vs 47.27. Plus I'm getting almost 3:1 pott odds (2.8:1 to be exact). IF that is what I put him on, folding here I believe is just a BIT too nitty. The main thing going against me here is that I am out of position. And if he is holding K, J, keep in mind I'm blocking his straight by holding two queens.

That is just looking at one hand within his range. I simply don't want to spend the time to do the math on every single hand within his betting range. But there are a lot of bluffs, semi bluffs, and made hands in his range here.

So although I do think folding on the flop is definitely not a bad decision, I tend to be a bit more sticky here. Especially with my 'reads' on him of being very weak.

In hindsight, I do agree I probably should have folded on the turn. But in my defense, most hands that he is representing on the flop, do check that turn. So I found it very suspicious for him to continue betting.

Long story short. I just didn't believe his story. So it paid off this one time. Moving forward, I do like your advice. And I would take the more conservative route 98% of the time (by folding on the turn).

Thank you for your input. Although I took a different line, I do agree with you.

Great input. Thank you, Alexandar.

Although I am a big proponent of keeping it simple... I also feel like just simply folding here is just too easy. My game would become too exploitable if I don't have the correct amount of balance. I don't think a fold on the flop here is always the answer.

Besides, I get value not just by making money off of a hand, but also the experience, and at least CONSIDERING all of the options.