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Old 08-16-2016, 11:42 AM   #1
DetroitLions
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Too Nitty with KK???

So over my past few sessions of 1/2NL I have lost some really big pots with KK. Two of them came from terrible river calls on my part, I knew I should have folded and refused to accept I was outdrawn. So I'm starting to finally realize that I will get outdrawn and have to learn to lay down this hand when I am beat.

Before I tell you the specific hand I want your thoughts on, I want to explain a hand that happened a few hands earlier. I was dealt KdKc in MP and raised to $9 over two limpers and one of them called. (A raise of $10 or more would usually steal the pot as the table was playing real tight). So the pot was $21 going to the flop.

Flop ($21) Ks9c5s
Villain checks and I C-bet $13 and he calls

Turn ($47) Qs
Villain checks and I bet $20 and he calls. (I think I could have bet larger here???)

River ($87) 2s
Villain immediately takes a stack of $100 and shoves it in front of him. It was almost like a snap bet. I think for awhile and have bad memories of my past mistakes of holding KK too long. I fold in frustration and show my KK to the players next to me. The villain folds face down. Then starts to mingle with the kid next to him about me and keeps looking my way smiling. It led me to believe that he was talking about me and possibly how he bluffed me out of a pot. This is important because about 10 or so hands later I get KK again but end up head up against the kid sitting next this villain. So this kid already has a picture in his head of me from this other villain.

Actual hand I want thoughts on.

I'm in MP again and get KdKc (stack is $170). Kid UTG (stack is a littler over $200) raises to $13 and it folds around to me. I was thinking of 3-betting, but this kid has played only a few hands at since he sat down (all limped except 1) and seems quite tight. I don't want to 3-bet him and scare him away from the hand and AA could also be a part of his raising range UTG since I think he's quite tight. After I call it folds around, so were heads up.

Flop ($29) Jh9d4s
UTG bets $20 and I call

Turn ($69) Qh
UTG bets $50, hero???

I know some of you might say this is an instant call, but I am pretty much traumatized from my previous instances with KK and am afraid I might be beat. This flop and turn hits his range quite well imo. He could easily have a two pair or a set. The way he is betting makes me believe he does have a hand because this is the first time he has lead out oop two streets in a row and also it's the most he has bet with any of his hands so far. I don't think this player is the kind to double barrel after I called his pre-flop raise and flop bet. But there's a part of me that wonders if my previous KK hand that I folded has given him some confidence to try and run me out of this pot. Especially considering he was conversing with the previous villain about me after he might have bluffed me off my trip Kings. I think the right play here is to call and see what the river brings, but if I do call, what river cards am I looking for and what ones are scaring me away?

This was my first post ever on this site so I'm sorry if I'm missing any information or the post is confusing. If there is anything I should do different for future posts, let me know! Thanks!

Last edited by DetroitLions; 08-16-2016 at 11:44 AM. Reason: forgot to include stack sizes
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Old 08-16-2016, 11:54 AM   #2
MatthewNL
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Re: Too Nitty with KK???

You should really move down and practice more at smaller stakes, like 5 cent 10 cent online ? Or if you are okay playing for fun then continue on etc.

For the hand you described, never flat here with KK, you should be 3-betting pretty much 100% of the time in this spot, as played raise that flop bet up to 55+ then get the rest in.
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Old 08-16-2016, 12:39 PM   #3
suited fours
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Re: Too Nitty with KK???

Don't ever show your cards when you don't have to and you'll be much better off.

As played, you have to call the turn and almost all rivers.

Once you have an image that you can be bullied, take a break, switch tables or quit for the day. It can be hard to win with that image.
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Old 08-16-2016, 01:00 PM   #4
Reubenr676
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Re: Too Nitty with KK???

Don't get frustrated in the first hand. The cards are the cards and sometimes they come down horribly. It happens to everyone. BTW you need to bet more than 13 into 21 or 20 into 47. You're giving draws an incredible price. Try 17/21 and 35/47.

On the second hand this is an easy call. You have an overpair with a terrible image so the villain could easily be trying to bully you around. Call turn and river.
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Old 08-16-2016, 05:32 PM   #5
MikeStarr
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Re: Too Nitty with KK???

If villain is pretty tight, he doesnt have 2 pair. That much you can be sure of.
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Old 08-16-2016, 06:42 PM   #6
DetroitLions
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Re: Too Nitty with KK???

Quote:
Originally Posted by suited fours View Post
Don't ever show your cards when you don't have to and you'll be much better off.

As played, you have to call the turn and almost all rivers.

Once you have an image that you can be bullied, take a break, switch tables or quit for the day. It can be hard to win with that image.
I know better than to show my cards, I just let this situation really bother me. I just didn't want the players at the table thinking I was betting on complete air and oblivious to the game of poker. I guess that's a personal problem since I'm only 21 and look very young, so people assume I'm just a fish at the tables and I want to prove them wrong. I guess I need to stop doing that and having that mindset. Thanks for confirming its a call on the turn and river, I thought that's what I should have done!!

Do you have any advice on trying to get rid of an image of being able to be bullied? People look at me and seem to always assume they can bully me because of my appearance, as I said above. I have been bullied around in many of my sessions and usually seem to be able to wait for a good hand and finally get the bully's chips, but I was frustrated when I finally had a hand that I felt I could stack the bully with and ended up not being able to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewNL View Post
You should really move down and practice more at smaller stakes, like 5 cent 10 cent online ? Or if you are okay playing for fun then continue on etc.

For the hand you described, never flat here with KK, you should be 3-betting pretty much 100% of the time in this spot, as played raise that flop bet up to 55+ then get the rest in.
Since I live in Michigan, it is illegal to play poker online so I really dont have the option of playing 5cent/10cent. I really wish I had a way to be able to do that because as a college student, that is much more affordable than playing 1/2. Although this summer I have had some pretty good success in building up a bankroll for 1/2 by playing at local Detroit casinos. Is there a specific reason your recommending me to play lower stakes? I've read many books this summer on poker and routinely listen to podcasts to constantly learn more material about hold'em. I know that I have a long way to go on learning, but I do feel quite comfortable at 1/2 and wish I could play something like 50cent/$1 but I dont have that option.

The only reason I didnt 3-bet with it was because I was afraid of that making my range too obvious for my opponent. I know a way to avoid that would be to open up my 3-betting range, but how would you recommend doing that? What hands should I be 3-betting with in order to not have my range so obvious when I do 3-bet with KK or AA?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Reubenr676 View Post
Don't get frustrated in the first hand. The cards are the cards and sometimes they come down horribly. It happens to everyone. BTW you need to bet more than 13 into 21 or 20 into 47. You're giving draws an incredible price. Try 17/21 and 35/47.

On the second hand this is an easy call. You have an overpair with a terrible image so the villain could easily be trying to bully you around. Call turn and river.
I let the first hand bother me too much, i know that :/. After this last fold I left the table and went home for the day, I haven't been back to the casino since because I really believe in the importance of one's mental game and I do not feel as if I'm mentally ready to go back and be put in those situations. Thanks for the advice on the C-bets, my problem seems to lie in the fact that when I do hit the flops I tend to C-bet lighter in order to keep opponents from folding. I don't really want to take the pot down there do I? I didn't realize how good of a price I was giving draws till you mentioned it, I was just so absorbed in the essence of keeping my opponents in the hand and not having them fold on the flop.

I had a feeling I should have called the turn bet and made a mistake by folding. Thanks for confirming that it's a call in that spot! I didn't think about my image of being bullied around until I was in my car driving home. I then realized I made it obvious I can be bullied and that's probably what happened so I wanted confirmation from some others that I was right in thinking that. Thanks for your response and advice!
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Old 08-17-2016, 07:01 AM   #7
Liart
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Re: Too Nitty with KK???

About the prelude hand. I don't think it matters there how much you bet. Somewhere in the 10-25 range is all fine. What matters is how do you plan to continue the hand after you make a bet and get called.Since you chose 13, that bet almost certainly binds you to playing for pot control if a dangerous card comes OTT. In the hand when the obvious flush card came you continued to build the pot (Why?)

It doesn't matter here if your opponent has a flush or doesn't, what matters is what you know about him.

Is he a chaser that goes after any draw? Is he a tricky opponent that might use the scary board to make a big bluff? Is there any history between two of you ? Any knowledge that you have about your opponent here might be useful in determining the best course of action. The thing is, if you don't know much about him, the safest (and often the best) way is to go with is a generic optimal play ---> which is pot control play here. So check the turn and go for value if you improve on the river, if you don't improve you will have an easy call OTR or a tougher decision if he checks (whether to go for value bet or not).
One more reason for me to believe that checking the turn is the right play (with no villain info) is that the bet doesn't accomplish anything most of the time, besides building the pot.
1)It will never force a stronger hand to fold,
2) it will force some weaker hands to call but this will be compensated by the times when stronger hands call
3)and in the end it will not deny the odds form the drawing hands (since there is a lot of money behind).

A bigger bet would accomplish the 3rd goal but would be more severely punished when opponent has a flush.
In view of all this , pot control seems the way to go here (particularly for you , since it will make your decisions OTR easier and it will keep you away from that "easy to bully" image, since you will be calling the river bets often with Overpairs and Top pairs when the size of the pot is cotrolled
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Old 08-17-2016, 07:26 AM   #8
ITT666
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Re: Too Nitty with KK???

In general being a calling station is a bad thing in poker.

There are scenarios in which being a calling station is a good thing however.

If you feel people are over bluffing you that's a good time to go in to calling station mode.
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Old 08-17-2016, 08:22 AM   #9
DetroitLions
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Re: Too Nitty with KK???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liart View Post
About the prelude hand. I don't think it matters there how much you bet. Somewhere in the 10-25 range is all fine. What matters is how do you plan to continue the hand after you make a bet and get called.Since you chose 13, that bet almost certainly binds you to playing for pot control if a dangerous card comes OTT. In the hand when the obvious flush card came you continued to build the pot (Why?)

It doesn't matter here if your opponent has a flush or doesn't, what matters is what you know about him.

Is he a chaser that goes after any draw? Is he a tricky opponent that might use the scary board to make a big bluff? Is there any history between two of you ? Any knowledge that you have about your opponent here might be useful in determining the best course of action. The thing is, if you don't know much about him, the safest (and often the best) way is to go with is a generic optimal play ---> which is pot control play here. So check the turn and go for value if you improve on the river, if you don't improve you will have an easy call OTR or a tougher decision if he checks (whether to go for value bet or not).
You make a great point about pot controlling the turn. Anytime I have top pair on a draw heavy board after the turn, I will almost always pot control the turn. What was running through my head in this situation was that if I checked the turn I would look weak and I was afraid of the villain leading out the river if I checked. Do you think that if I check the turn it makes my hand look weak? Would checking the turn make myself look like im easy to bully around anytime a scare card comes?
So I thought by betting the turn it would not make my hand look as weak and hopefully would have the villain check the river back to me and I could check it down if another scare card came or bet for value if I thought my trips were still good.

This opponent was the newest guy at the table and from what one person said about him, he was a regular who would give a lot of action. Since I knew he wouldn't hesitate to give action, I knew he would probably call my $20 bet with a marginal hand or even nothing, in hope that he will hit it on the river. So I was hoping the bet would make him think twice about leading out the river and have him check to me, but the river card seemed to be quite good for him. That line of thinking obviously didn't work and is probably quite flawed now that I'm thinking it over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liart View Post
One more reason for me to believe that checking the turn is the right play (with no villain info) is that the bet doesn't accomplish anything most of the time, besides building the pot.
1)It will never force a stronger hand to fold,
2) it will force some weaker hands to call but this will be compensated by the times when stronger hands call
3)and in the end it will not deny the odds form the drawing hands (since there is a lot of money behind).

A bigger bet would accomplish the 3rd goal but would be more severely punished when opponent has a flush.
In view of all this , pot control seems the way to go here (particularly for you , since it will make your decisions OTR easier and it will keep you away from that "easy to bully" image, since you will be calling the river bets often with Overpairs and Top pairs when the size of the pot is cotrolled
I really like what you are saying here. My bet on the turn didn't really help my situation and when I think about the bet after reading what you wrote here, the turn bet was probably a mistake. Although I might have a bit of knowledge on the villain here, I don't have any first hand knowledge and was basing my image of him on the words of one old regular at the table, checking the turn in this situation is probably the best line. Thanks for your thoughts on this hand! At first I was pretty content on how I played it, thinking the fold on the river was good and never thought about how bad my turn bet possibly was.
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Old 08-17-2016, 09:02 AM   #10
keybattle
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Re: Too Nitty with KK???

It sounds like you are money scared a lot. Otherwise, you will not be too concerned. Don't show your cards to prove that you don't have air. If you are really tight and rarely bluff, you should want others think you are betting air


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Old 08-17-2016, 10:41 AM   #11
buggits30
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Re: Too Nitty with KK???

Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitLions View Post
I know better than to show my cards, I just let this situation really bother me. I just didn't want the players at the table thinking I was betting on complete air and oblivious to the game of poker. I guess that's a personal problem since I'm only 21 and look very young, so people assume I'm just a fish at the tables and I want to prove them wrong. I guess I need to stop doing that and having that mindset. Thanks for confirming its a call on the turn and river, I thought that's what I should have done!!

Do you have any advice on trying to get rid of an image of being able to be bullied? People look at me and seem to always assume they can bully me because of my appearance, as I said above. I have been bullied around in many of my sessions and usually seem to be able to wait for a good hand and finally get the bully's chips, but I was frustrated when I finally had a hand that I felt I could stack the bully with and ended up not being able to.



Since I live in Michigan, it is illegal to play poker online so I really dont have the option of playing 5cent/10cent. I really wish I had a way to be able to do that because as a college student, that is much more affordable than playing 1/2. Although this summer I have had some pretty good success in building up a bankroll for 1/2 by playing at local Detroit casinos. Is there a specific reason your recommending me to play lower stakes? I've read many books this summer on poker and routinely listen to podcasts to constantly learn more material about hold'em. I know that I have a long way to go on learning, but I do feel quite comfortable at 1/2 and wish I could play something like 50cent/$1 but I dont have that option.

The only reason I didnt 3-bet with it was because I was afraid of that making my range too obvious for my opponent. I know a way to avoid that would be to open up my 3-betting range, but how would you recommend doing that? What hands should I be 3-betting with in order to not have my range so obvious when I do 3-bet with KK or AA?





I let the first hand bother me too much, i know that :/. After this last fold I left the table and went home for the day, I haven't been back to the casino since because I really believe in the importance of one's mental game and I do not feel as if I'm mentally ready to go back and be put in those situations. Thanks for the advice on the C-bets, my problem seems to lie in the fact that when I do hit the flops I tend to C-bet lighter in order to keep opponents from folding. I don't really want to take the pot down there do I? I didn't realize how good of a price I was giving draws till you mentioned it, I was just so absorbed in the essence of keeping my opponents in the hand and not having them fold on the flop.

I had a feeling I should have called the turn bet and made a mistake by folding. Thanks for confirming that it's a call in that spot! I didn't think about my image of being bullied around until I was in my car driving home. I then realized I made it obvious I can be bullied and that's probably what happened so I wanted confirmation from some others that I was right in thinking that. Thanks for your response and advice!

On the topic of being bullied, I also play in Michigan, have been playing since I was 21 (about 3-4 years now so do the math) and have played just about everywhere there is to play (multiple charity rooms, all detroit casinos, keepers. etc) and I can say I have never felt like I was being bullied at the table. Appearance could be a factor as I am very tall but I also play a very TAG game where I am usually the aggressor both pre and post flop. If you feel you are being bullied you are probably playing too passive, but I'll be honest I doubt 95% of the opponents you are playing against arent thinking on that level. Most are just playing their 2 cards and arent too concerned with bullying some young kid. It sounds like you are letting that affect your decision making as youve basically turned into scared money. Just focus on making the best decision on every street based on the range you think your opponent has.

And please 3 bet in hand 2 every time, a tight opening range is the perfect time to 3 bet AA/KK at that stack size.
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Old 08-17-2016, 10:54 AM   #12
DetroitLions
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Re: Too Nitty with KK???

Quote:
Originally Posted by keybattle View Post
It sounds like you are money scared a lot. Otherwise, you will not be too concerned. Don't show your cards to prove that you don't have air. If you are really tight and rarely bluff, you should want others think you are betting air


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Why would you think I'm money scared? I obviously don't like to lose money, but when playing poker that's going to happen and I know that. If I lose money by making the correct decision in a certain circumstance and am unlucky (which will happen) I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is losing money by making foolish decisions. That's why I'm posting here to avoid me making bad decisions that cost me money. So I wouldn't necessarily label me as money scared. I personally think there's a difference between being scared to lose money in any situation and trying to avoid losing money by making foolish decisions that can be avoided in the future. I will never be able to change the cards that are dealt, but I can change the decisions I make with the cards.

You're completely right about showing my cards, it is completely ineffective. All it does it further confirm to my opponents that I'm a tight player and it makes it easier for them to put me on a range. Thanks
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Old 08-17-2016, 11:15 AM   #13
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Re: Too Nitty with KK???

Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitLions View Post
Why would you think I'm money scared? I obviously don't like to lose money, but when playing poker that's going to happen and I know that. If I lose money by making the correct decision in a certain circumstance and am unlucky (which will happen) I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is losing money by making foolish decisions. That's why I'm posting here to avoid me making bad decisions that cost me money. So I wouldn't necessarily label me as money scared. I personally think there's a difference between being scared to lose money in any situation and trying to avoid losing money by making foolish decisions that can be avoided in the future. I will never be able to change the cards that are dealt, but I can change the decisions I make with the cards.

You're completely right about showing my cards, it is completely ineffective. All it does it further confirm to my opponents that I'm a tight player and it makes it easier for them to put me on a range. Thanks
Your posts ooze "scared money". (and your play, by not 3betting KK)

Don't take offense. Just try to understand why you're getting that feedback. You may need to put away this thread for awhile and reread it down the road to see where people are coming from.
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Old 08-17-2016, 11:31 AM   #14
keybattle
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Re: Too Nitty with KK???

Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitLions View Post
Why would you think I'm money scared? I obviously don't like to lose money, but when playing poker that's going to happen and I know that. If I lose money by making the correct decision in a certain circumstance and am unlucky (which will happen) I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is losing money by making foolish decisions. That's why I'm posting here to avoid me making bad decisions that cost me money. So I wouldn't necessarily label me as money scared. I personally think there's a difference between being scared to lose money in any situation and trying to avoid losing money by making foolish decisions that can be avoided in the future. I will never be able to change the cards that are dealt, but I can change the decisions I make with the cards.

You're completely right about showing my cards, it is completely ineffective. All it does it further confirm to my opponents that I'm a tight player and it makes it easier for them to put me on a range. Thanks
when you even think about flatting KK by being afraid of getting coolered by AA from a tight UTG opening, that's definitely money-sacred.

It is usually perfect to 3bet against tight opening with KK as they are always calling your 3bet.
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Old 08-17-2016, 11:45 AM   #15
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Re: Too Nitty with KK???

Quote:
Originally Posted by suited fours View Post
Don't ever show your cards when you don't have to and you'll be much better off.

As played, you have to call the turn and almost all rivers.

Once you have an image that you can be bullied, take a break, switch tables or quit for the day. It can be hard to win with that image.
Phil Ivey has been quoted as saying "If I don't have a winning image after 2 hours, I'm outta' there." I'm probably paraphrasing. For some reason, he doesn't believe that the fact that he is "Phil Ivey" is enough!

Anyway, he can't just ask for a table change to the other side of the room.

On the hand in question, when UTG o/r to $13, I'm raising to $30.00. If he is "tight" he will almost never, if ever, 4-bet with QQ or AK, so I'd fold to a huge 4-bet.
His range is probably AQ+; AJs; TT+.

Last edited by ZuneIt; 08-17-2016 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 08-17-2016, 12:30 PM   #16
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Re: Too Nitty with KK???

Sounds to me like you need to work on your image. Something I like to do when I first sit or am around players who don’t know me well is start off fast. I will be betting/raising a wide range just long enough for ppl to think I am a maniac. I will literally look for spots to be a super aggro and this game your sitting at seems perfect for that. $10 scares ppl out of pots? LMAO you need to loosen this game up. Once you establish your image as the “maniac” you switch it up to TAG and you will see ppl will be less quickly to bet into you and will be calling a lot more when you do have it.

Also always 3 betting those KK come on kid!
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Old 08-17-2016, 12:47 PM   #17
DetroitLions
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Re: Too Nitty with KK???

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Originally Posted by buggits30 View Post
On the topic of being bullied, I also play in Michigan, have been playing since I was 21 (about 3-4 years now so do the math) and have played just about everywhere there is to play (multiple charity rooms, all detroit casinos, keepers. etc) and I can say I have never felt like I was being bullied at the table. Appearance could be a factor as I am very tall but I also play a very TAG game where I am usually the aggressor both pre and post flop. If you feel you are being bullied you are probably playing too passive, but I'll be honest I doubt 95% of the opponents you are playing against arent thinking on that level. Most are just playing their 2 cards and arent too concerned with bullying some young kid. It sounds like you are letting that affect your decision making as youve basically turned into scared money. Just focus on making the best decision on every street based on the range you think your opponent has.

And please 3 bet in hand 2 every time, a tight opening range is the perfect time to 3 bet AA/KK at that stack size.
That's honestly awesome to hear! I could just be psyching myself out that I'm being bullied when I'm really not. Although there were probably very few I was being bullied, I'm more than likely just thinking that more people are doing it when they actually aren't. I guess I'm assuming some of my opponents are thinking on a much higher level than they actually are thinking, which is probably the case considering I only play 1/2. You also opened up my eyes to the fact that I might be playing wayy to passive even though I thought I wasn't. I know playing passive is not a winning strategy and try not to do it, but it looks like I have been playing too passively and haven't realized it till now. Thanks for your input about that!

I have now learned that I must almost always 3-bet KK!


Quote:
Originally Posted by suited fours View Post
Your posts ooze "scared money". (and your play, by not 3betting KK)

Don't take offense. Just try to understand why you're getting that feedback. You may need to put away this thread for awhile and reread it down the road to see where people are coming from.
I am taking no offense at all by anyone's post and I'm sorry if I'm coming off defensive, I am not meaning to! I strongly believe in constructive criticism and feel like that's exactly what I'm getting here and that's what I was hoping to get from this post. I am really thankful that I have received as many responses as I already have on this thread. So please continue to give me as much constructive criticism as possible. I definitely need it and that's why I'm here on this forumI just always explain myself in detail once someone says something, so they can get a better understanding where I'm coming from and give me a more relevant answer.

Could you explain exactly what "money scared" means? Maybe I don't fully understand what you guys mean by saying my posts are portraying that image. By having multiple posters say that about me, it could be the long over due wake-up call I needed to stop being money scared cause I never realized I was acting in such a manner. I never realized how passively I was playing by not 3-betting KK until all these responses, thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by keybattle View Post
when you even think about flatting KK by being afraid of getting coolered by AA from a tight UTG opening, that's definitely money-sacred.

It is usually perfect to 3bet against tight opening with KK as they are always calling your 3bet.
In my head it didn't seem terrible to not 3-bet KK, but when you put it like you just did...yeah I am being money scared in that situation. Being afraid of someone having AA cause they raised UTG is kind of ridiculous
One thing I learned this summer about 1/2 NL its that people call 3-bets too often after they opened and I missed out on my chance of putting a player in a situation to make that mistake (because I was money scared...). Especially if he raised UTG, he probably doesn't plan on folding to any 3-bets, am I correct in thinking that? So this was an ideal situation to 3-bet...well I've definitely learned to not make that mistake again Also I want to apologize if my original message to you came off as I was being defensive toward you or upset in any way. I appreciate your response to my post and the feedback you gave. Like I said earlier in this post, this might have been the long over-due wake-up call I needed for me to start playing without being money scared.

Last edited by DetroitLions; 08-17-2016 at 12:49 PM. Reason: mistakes inserting smiles
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Old 08-17-2016, 02:22 PM   #18
Tilty_McDonkawhirl
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Re: Too Nitty with KK???

First hand, sizing is too small all the way down. I wouldn't worry too much about him bluffing the river unless he's keenly aware of the Clarkmeister theorem. I would be folding here a lot without reads that indicate this is a bluff over a third of the time.

Second hand, it turns out you might be totally right. If your reads are spot on, he could have AA or QQ very plausibly, or maybe even JJ. But you didn't tell us what sample size over which the kid was playing super nitty. If the sample is small, he could just be really card dead.

But since we have this image of having a fold button, and it's possible V just has had a slew of bad cards (and isn't just a nit), I think we have to call here. This can be AJ+, TT and some random BS. Even tight players can be opportunistic with bluffing if they feel the spot is correct, and to him, given a number of factors, this could feel correct.

The likely combos you're losing to (AA, QQ, JJ) are only 12, while, given the info you provided, there are likely more combos in his range (mentioned before) that you win against. Also you have equity against every hand to which you're currently losing -- always a plus.

I think you have to call turn and the only riv I would hate to see is an A.
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Old 08-17-2016, 07:12 PM   #19
WereBeer
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Re: Too Nitty with KK???

I haven't read the thread yet, just going through your initial post:

General advice: play online (lowest possible cash stakes) and study poker, learn how to navigate trivial situations.

More general advice: people are not bullying you as much as you think.

More advice again: don't show your cards to other people like you did. Poker is a game of incomplete information, don't fill in the blanks for them. Let them make their own assumptions.

Hand you want advice on: you have 85bb and 2nd nuts facing a single raise. Default play is to 3bet. Without very specific villain information, you cannot fear getting this in preflop. If he folds, so be it. If he ships, call.

There are other ways you can play this but you should focus on developing a working ABC game. You need to recognise the obvious play and do it.

As played, I'm calling down.
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Old 08-20-2016, 07:49 AM   #20
Liart
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Re: Too Nitty with KK???

Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitLions View Post
You make a great point about pot controlling the turn. Anytime I have top pair on a draw heavy board after the turn, I will almost always pot control the turn. What was running through my head in this situation was that if I checked the turn I would look weak and I was afraid of the villain leading out the river if I checked. Do you think that if I check the turn it makes my hand look weak? Would checking the turn make myself look like im easy to bully around anytime a scare card comes?
So I thought by betting the turn it would not make my hand look as weak and hopefully would have the villain check the river back to me and I could check it down if another scare card came or bet for value if I thought my trips were still good.

This opponent was the newest guy at the table and from what one person said about him, he was a regular who would give a lot of action. Since I knew he wouldn't hesitate to give action, I knew he would probably call my $20 bet with a marginal hand or even nothing, in hope that he will hit it on the river. So I was hoping the bet would make him think twice about leading out the river and have him check to me, but the river card seemed to be quite good for him. That line of thinking obviously didn't work and is probably quite flawed now that I'm thinking it over.



I really like what you are saying here. My bet on the turn didn't really help my situation and when I think about the bet after reading what you wrote here, the turn bet was probably a mistake. Although I might have a bit of knowledge on the villain here, I don't have any first hand knowledge and was basing my image of him on the words of one old regular at the table, checking the turn in this situation is probably the best line. Thanks for your thoughts on this hand! At first I was pretty content on how I played it, thinking the fold on the river was good and never thought about how bad my turn bet possibly was.
Sorry for the late reply. To answer your question whether checking the turn makes your hand look weak and easy to bully around:
In that exact moment it might (OTT), but overall - no. It is because you will be able to call the river (since you have controlled the pot) and then on top of winning some extra money when they were bluffing, you will gain a trickier image.
Imagine these river scenarios:
1)A non spade, non pair the board comes, they check , you bet
1a) and they fold
1b) and they call with worse
1c) they raise and you fold (this is the least likely possibility, since they have to have a flush and check it twice)

2)same river they bet
2a) you call and win
2b) you call and lose

Here scenario 2a is very probable if they don't have much since you made your hand look weak OTT

3) River gives you a boat or quads

3a) they bet you raise
3b) they check you bet

This kind of river will happen quite often since there are 10 cards in the deck that make this possible

4) river is a spade pairing the board ---> same play as under 3)

5) river is a spade not pairing the board

5a) they check , you check or bet
5b) they bet you probably fold

In some of these scenarios you have to factor in your opponent's tendencies particularly in situation number 5, but still if you look at all these possible endings of the hand, I think your image will gain more credibility then lose it. It depends a lot which situation occurs, but still in general there are endings that give you a tricky image and there are ones that give you a weak image, but you can't put image above EV (actually you can , but for small ev losses, but here trying to build a macho image would cost you money a lot (by betting OTT))
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Old 08-20-2016, 10:50 AM   #21
daveMASS
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Re: Too Nitty with KK???

Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBeer View Post
I haven't read the thread yet, just going through your initial post:

General advice: play online (lowest possible cash stakes) and study poker, learn how to navigate trivial situations.

More general advice: people are not bullying you as much as you think.

More advice again: don't show your cards to other people like you did. Poker is a game of incomplete information, don't fill in the blanks for them. Let them make their own assumptions.

Hand you want advice on: you have 85bb and 2nd nuts facing a single raise. Default play is to 3bet. Without very specific villain information, you cannot fear getting this in preflop. If he folds, so be it. If he ships, call.

There are other ways you can play this but you should focus on developing a working ABC game. You need to recognise the obvious play and do it.

As played, I'm calling down.
People are not bullying you as much as you think-- so important to realize as a younger player. I struggled with this for a few years-- thinking that every hand someone was trying to outplay me-- when in reality that is rarely the case.
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Old 08-20-2016, 12:26 PM   #22
MrMarkP37
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Re: Too Nitty with KK???

Okay, first I'm from Michigan too so I'm already biased in your favor. I play at Motor City or MGM pretty often (as well as a couple charity rooms) so I'm pretty familiar with the player types in our region. Second, I'll go ahead and reiterate that you should three bet your kings preflop. I know you didn't want to scare him away, but think about it this way: if he's a tight player and he's opening from early position that means it's much more likely that he has a hand he can continue with to our three bet so we capture all that value.

Second, our sizing needs to be bigger. I'm wondering if you play a lot of tournaments too, because half pot sized bets and even one third (as you move deeper into the tournament) are good bet sizes in those situations, but in cash games you usually want to bet a little bigger. 2/3 pot is generally better to price out draws and max value.

As played I think our hand is fairly underrepresented and as played I think check calling it down is probably the best way to go.
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