Yeah. I feel going with QQ here just adds unnecessary variance. Even if it were (marginally) +EV you're increasing your "risk of ruin" (or just "risk of tilt") in the session immensely.
I'd theorize that it's better (in the long run) to have a long session with steady gains and minimal risk of busting for the night than having a high variance session that you might get high reward in one particular hand but also run a high risk of ending the session right there (of course this is exploitable...but given the table description in the OP I think it's unlikely to be exploited here).

If the 3bet is really the villain suddenly shifting gears then: good for him. But he didn't make much profit from our fold and we'll soon catch on because if he does it again and again he'll stick out like a sore thumb on this table.

Adding to your tilt is that your 3b spots are so rare (<2% of hands) you feel entitled to winning a big pot. Try mixing it up and not playing like everybody else at the table. Try widening your 3b value range (TT+; offsuit broadways) and maybe adding some bluffs in as well to win more pots preflop vs this passive table (eg JTo, 75s, A2s).

Preflop I call. Folding is madness. The rare 3-bet is a flag, though it could easily be JJ or AK.

Postflop:
I'd also see a flop with JJ but would be less likely to put in more money postflop.

I massively overfold to 3 bets, I’m still waiting for someone to exploit me. I almost never get 3 bet light (and I’ll include 99 and AQ as “light” 3 bets) and I’m skeptical that a meaningful percentage of those 3 bets are coming from people trying to exploit me specifically.

Not saying I’m folding Queens, but people could definitely profitably 3 bet me with any two and it essentially never happens.

The guy was a limp happy passive player.. I just don’t see him 3b as a bluff vs me.. there were no 3bets at the table before this..

I called anyway..


Flop comes Ah Tc 8c

I check, V bets $45 again

You can call or fold...

It’s hard to give advice when you can’t be bothered to tell us your suits.

Has everyone gone crazy? Folding queens?? So much of that extreme play is table dependent. I don’t think you can restrict 3betting ranges so severely for ALL low limit poor players. People get wild too. Here in miami, people are 3betting 99 TT A6s god knows. Poker is very regional too. In different regions, people play differently. And we carry that bias with us into this forum. Just something to be mindful of...


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Pretty easy fold? You're only beating JJ and 3bet bluffs w/ suited connectors.

Didn’t have the Qc. Also, I think it makes very little difference if we’re trying to go runner runner flush or something here, OR thinking about blocking Vs flush draws if we had the Qc or something.

I actually think his flop sizing looks a little weak given the drawy board so there’s a chance it’s KK/JJ but AA is also possible. I wonder if we can call and if turn goes c/c, shove river as a bluff.

Call. I would never 4bet villain if he hasnt 3bet at all. But i think folding QQ here to his 3bet is too nitty.

We should see a flop and because of the players at the table being so passive it should be easy to navigate postflop.

Now after seeing your comment about the flop....easy fold otf

I dont thinkt the flop sizing looks too weak after 3betting pre.

I think 1/2 pot on such a flop hu after 3betting pre is standard.

+1 on all of this

People don't exploit the hell out of me either - probably because I'm not showing everyone my sick folds.

Not folding QQ here pre though...folding the flop though.

+1

Its something i preached countless times on this forum, like people go like this "if i do that and that people can so easily exploit the hell out of me".

Yeah sure, nobody is arguing that- but the fact is it wont be happenning. Its such a small small percentage of villains at LLSNL capable of 1) Observing that and be certain that you overfold to 3 bets and 2) Be good enough to actually employ exploitative adjustments versus you at the tables.

If youre indeed up against the rare good winning player once in a while, you can always readjust to the situation if you get the sense that he is 3 betting you too much and you suspect he is exploiting you.

+2

That said, I'm never folding QQ pf to a 3bet, especially at a 5 person table. For folding QQ to be correct, the villain has to never be 3 betting AK. Even OMC is 3 betting AK in this situation. On the flop, easy fold.

Absolutely Venice, i am not folding QQ preflop here either- so hope it doesent come across like that in my last post you quoted.

I don’t really like calling OOP with these stack sizes just to try to set mine. I don’t see why a hand like JJx can’t take one stab here and x back turns if called. It’s a merged bet to deny equity and prevent him from getting bluffed by 99-77 type hands, while also folding better if we’re just pitching KK/QQ into the muck here.

Whether he even 3bets JJ is another story, and that combined with our lack of the Q tips it to a fold I suppose. The more interesting hand would be how we proceed through flop and turn without the Ace on board.

Despite all the people +1'ing this post, I would still like to mention that this statement does not compute at all. How would you know you're almost never getting 3bet light(ly?) when you're massively overfolding? Are they all showing you their hands? It doesn't make sense.

I do agree however that almost no one is gonna exploit someone who's overfolding to 3bets. No one is picking up on the fact that you're overfolding anyway(unless you're openfolding JJ and AQs etc). But that doesn't mean no one is 3betting you lightly.

If you're certain V's are not 3betting without QQ, KK, AA then I doubt any of you are making mistakes overfolding to 3bets. In weak games this is perfectly fine strategy.

It doesn't make it any less true that people can 3b and barrel you overfolders with ATC and print money. I see hands posted here all the time, more at 2/5, with some read on V that he 3bets in position a lot, is a hoodie pro, whatever. They're out there 3betting you light and getting people to post hands on 2p2. I know it is getting off topic from the original thread but overfolding and generally not playing back is some treacherous territory imo and shouldn't be a default strategy like many are implying here; again it is perfectly fine for a 1/2 game of weak tight players.

Guess i am gonna try to explain, even though i know you view me as a guy who "have figured it all out".

We dont need villain to always show their hands after they 3 bet to know with decent accuracy were not being exploited.Sometimes it happens villain show their cards, and if you get shown a premium everytime (wich is near always the case in my own experience) that is of course one piece of the puzzle. Its so funny how often you can make a strong fold pre to a 3 bet, and then villain shows you kings or aces and goes like "See? I aint messin around buddy, i got a good hand!".

Another piece is simply observing _frequenzies_. If a grinder is 3 betting you once pr 2 hours, he isnt exploiting you. He likely just 3 bets the standard JJ+ and AK range against you. If a villain havent 3 bet in 3 hours, then suddenly 3 bets you couple of times in a row, then goes another 2 hours without 3 betting again: chances are he just picked up couple of premiums. He isnt exploiting your for folding x hands against 3 bets. Unless you fold faceup nobody would even know if you folded KJ off or JJ. They would need a very big sample playing with you for being able to get any deep insight in how strong hands you may fold to 3 bets.

If you come across an aggro player who 3 bets alot more than the usual JJ+ and AK, or a good winning player who is picking up on you folding alot to 3 bets and is indeed putting it into practice to exploit you- it is pretty easy to discover what they are doing in my opinion. The frequenzies you get 3 bet will suddenly become alot higher and more intense from what youre used to from the average TAGfishes,OMC or the regular grinders. If and when that happens you obviously need to make adjustments on the spot: either by putting more hands in your 4 bet range and play back at him, or flat the 3 bets more- preferably both with the top of your range KK-AA some portion of the time as well as other playable hands considering stack depth, positions and so forth.

As played, I fold the flop. Big Ax / TT just got there so the only hand we remain ahead of is JJ and weirdo hands.

I'm still cool with folding preflop at passive tables, although obviously it's table / opponent dependent. A massive amount of opponents flat AK/JJ in this spot and don't readjust their game to shorthanded tables. If I was in position I'd more lean to seeing a flop.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Usually? Not a chance. At this particular table (as described in the OP) yes, I probably would.
I've played with novice players who were so check/cally that I'd easily lay down KK if I ever saw a 3bet from them. The kinds of players who think 22 absolutely crushes AKs and don't even know that 3bets are allowed until you tell them.

A few months ago I was playing in a tournament where a guy sat down and in the first 3 hands he played checked AA, JJ and then QQ all the way down to the river without ever making a bet. If that guy ever raised me in any hand I'd have folded everything except the stone cold nuts.

This, plus the times that the passive villains cold call your raise and showdown 99-JJ, AQ/AK further confirms that they are almost always 3-betting you with only QQ+.

The fact that no one 3bet in an hour is really meaningless, since the number of hands dealt in live games is not enough of a sample size.

The question I ask in these situations is could he be 3betting with AK, or is he that tight where it's only AA or KK. And based on his read, I think I would add AK into his 3bet range.

I would call and play post flop, folding to bets on an ace or king flop.

When we flat pre it's definitely not a set mine. We have SDV (we don't have nearly enough IO @ 100 BB's to SM anyway).

nh. now fold

If you're only including AK along with QQ+ then it's still -EV to call this preflop if you're only going to fold if an A or K lands on the flop. Hell, it's only barely +EV even if you include JJ in his 3bet range, and I don't think most players at passive 1/2 or 1/3 tables are 3betting JJ.

That we're debating such a mediocre spot to begin with vs. a tight-passive player just further clarifies my approach: pick better spots. There's way better spots to exploit tight-passive players than barely profitable coin-flips vs. their range.

Even so: That means against 12 combos (AA,KK) you are a 4:1 dog and against 16 combos of AK you are 45:55 favorite.
I.e.
12/28 * 0.2 + 16/28 * 0.55 ...that makes you pretty exactly a 60:40 dog overall. Not the kind of odds I want to play (much less as a long term strategy).

Even if you add 6 combos of JJ:
12/34 * 0.2 + 16/34 * 0.55 + 6/34 * 0.8 ...that still leaves you a 54:46 dog

Ok..I omitted the one combo of QQ he could have...but that only skews stuff ever so slightly towards 50:50 and does not change the general -EVness of the approach. You have to add in at least the 8 combos of AQ (or 6 combos of TT or some bluffs) to make this viable. With the description given I find this implausible.