V1(300) and V2(600) both calling stations, both almost auto limp callers, V2 has been on a heater hitting flops with her junk hands.

V3 (100)- MAAG, kind of laggy, but bought in short

Hero (350) - raising a lot pre in LP - hasn't shown down any hands in a big pot yet

V1 limps UTG , V2 limps UTG+1, V3 makes it 8 in MP, hero calls on Button with 55, V1 and V2 call

Flop(4, $30) Q85

V1 bets 15, V2 calls 15, V3 jams his 92..

Hero...

I like a jam. If V1 and V2 are really stationey you can snap off Qx and FDs. If you had QQ with a diamond i would flat

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I like a call. 93 is a big enough bet and I would want to get as much money from them as possible.

Call. You would want to call with your draws here, so you should be calling with your sets. Even if you don't care about playing balanced, calling still maximizes your EV, as your opponents are much more likely to jam one pair hands after you call than to call your jam with them. You shouldn't sweat the flush draw in a spot like this. They will lose money oop against your set with a naked flush draw, because they only hit the turn 18% of the time, and sometimes they will hit a worthless pair out (e.g. Ad9d hits the Ace on the turn) and pay you off. And even if they flush up, you can still suck out.

I could go either way
Equity denial is a thing too v JT, fd

I'm a bit torn here. There are a lot of bad turn cards for your hand, especially if this ends up going 3-4 ways to the turn. For me I think your hand is too strong to want to isolate a 50bb stack, and I'd be more interested in trying to extract max value. If you think V1/V2 are sticky enough that they'll call a ~$350 3! jam with TP or FDs , then by all means go ahead and GII here. I like a call here IP though, and probably go with a jam if you were were OOP, as it's going to be harder to get further value from OOP anyways.

Please show the math that justifies calling with draws here.

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When you describe your villains as "calling stations", the correct thing to do with value hands is to bet, most of the time.

In this case, I jam.

"Villain 1 and villain 2 both callingstations"

All you can eat baby. Flatting could potenially be a big mistake, for various reasons. One of those reasons is that strong Qx might shut down if scarecard like the flush gets there on the turn (i dont think Qx will 3 bet ship the flop at a very high frequenzy,especially not described calling stations), another reason is that by flatting we are really giving villains with strong draws implied odds for our whole stack only by calling the 92 flopraise,because we will never be able to fold a set on future streets with this amount in the pot.

All in. V1 and V2 sounds like the type of players who would justify calling with flush draws because pot odds. I'm not sure their calling ranges are going to be all that much different with an all-in versus $92.

Level? If you have the nut flush draw, you are profitable to get it in against V3, whose range is only a slight favorite (he has Qx or 88-AA almost always). If other Villains call, then you're getting an even better price on your draw. Just because you will lose the majority of the time does not make it unprofitable to continue.

You know you're alllowed to bet the turn right?

Show the math that says this.

Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and do the math yourself. Put this into Equilab.

V3 with 55, 88+, AQ, KQ, Q8s+, Q9o+, KJdd, KTdd, K9dd, JTdd, J9dd
verus
Hero with Ad7d.

Is call +EV if we get HU with V3?



If more people call, it is much more +EV, since we lose nothing extra if they call and we miss, but now make more money if we hit the nuts.

Let's say we can somehow predict that we will get jammed on 75% of the time by exactly one Villain with a range of 88, 55, Q8+, AQ, KQ. Run that range, along with V3's above, and Hero with Ad7d. Does Hero have enough equity to call, knowing he will usually have to call again facing V1's jam?



Of course, if both Villains jam behind, it is more +EV than if only one Villain jams.

I don see any math here.

Pot odds being offered for hero to simply call?

Implied odds being offered?

Or are you planning on using equilab at the table?

I like the goal post move... So "draws" means "nfd" only?

Your V3 range is lol.

lol such a clown post. You want me to show arithmetic pot odd calculations? Maybe you should try this forum.

It's not jam or call...make it $169 here.

Flatting all day.

We can always jam all non-diamond turns if we really want to.

Yeah, something like this. I make it 192(100 more) but whatever.

Uhhhh.. this is a standard 3 bet pre and shove now....

Don't do this. It accomplishes nothing that a flat won't also accomplish (getting V1 and V2 to fold hands we want them to continue with).

Basically you need to decide if you are willing to go broke with bottom set in this spot versus one (or a slight chance of both) early V's. If the answer is yes, then just flat (which is what I would do). If not, then just shove and iso versus the shorty (which IMO costs you EV long term, but certainly is the lower variance play).

Wait you are going to 3! 55 OTB versus the short stack opener? I would love to understand your thought process.

Disagree....you want these guys to make bad calls. If we flat...V1 calls...now V2 gets to make a proper call with a combo draw. There is no reason to let calling stations make proper calls.

Calling $82 more into $240 is a mistake. Small one yes, but I want them to call not fold. Even if the turn comes a diamond we have outs to re-draw. Basically your raise makes them fold all weaker hands including all draws and shove with sets better than ours. That is not an optimal way to play.

If V1 calls, by the time it gets to V2, it's $77 into $321.

OK and I am fine with that. One of them gets proper odds for one street. Either that or I lose them both and win nothing more. I will take my chances to try and win the extra $164 when they brick and I jam turn and even if they catch, I am OTB and can potentially see the river and fill. There is also the small chance that one of them gets spazzy with their draw and then we can GII on the flop when we are miles ahead. If we raise as you suggest, that % drops dramatically.

Calling is definitely a higher variance play, no question. But given stack sizes and shorty's shove size, I think it is the best play by far.

I like a shove vs. calling stations. It looks more as if you have a draw and want to see two cards, so they might call w/ their QX. Plus, if they have a draw, they are way more likely to call now with two cards to come than on the turn.