I play in a pretty small player pool but am having a bit of difficulty putting players on a range.
I think there are a few reasons for this.

1. I am used to using a hud and knowing my opponents vpip/pfr number.
2 I am used to playing with 6 players or less, before starting live I have played less than a 100 hands of 9 handed poker in the past 10 years.

Can anyone give me some advice on how to get a vpip/pfr number on some of these guy I'm playing against?

Once I see a number I can better put them on a range.

this is why someone should never get used to playing online and using a HUD, it keeps you from being able to learn how to read the players in real life, instead of having a computerized program do everything for u so u never learn anything. in real life u have to watch how they play, how often they stay in to see the flop etc. u have to watch, study and learn how your opponents play, theres no computer to do all the work for u, so it makes u get good at poker, unlike online.

It's a pity I dont have my computer with me live to do all the work for me like I have for the last 11 years as a midstakes+ online pro.
Would the casino allow me to bring my laptop in with me if I ask them nicely? It should fit right on the table so long as I keep my chips off to the side.
I will report back after I ask the poker room boss if I'm allowed to do this.

Thanks!!!

I can't but it may be very difficult for anyone because, even in a small player pool you are going to see way fewer hands played by your opponents. I think you will only be able to range them very broadly like, super loose, loose, tight, super tight.

To put numbers on those we would also have to consider their behaviors in positions because, if you're playing low limit, some of your opponents may not adjust to their position.

I guess I could wild guess, at low limit, super loose would be ~50%+, loose would be around 30%, tight ~15% and super tight ~5%, but this varies room to room. My room has both nitty omc's and no-gamble-no-future young guys. This might just be the limping and pfr'ing, and not include calling pfr's.

It may be that only someone who plays in your room can determine and only by long experience.

Ive been saying this for years. There's no doubt that the avg online player is better than the avg live player, but so many online players think they can sit down in a live game and dominate the "terrible" live players and that rarely happens. In fact the online players normally get destroyed for a while until they adapt and one thing they need to adapt to is the lack of a HUD.

So many online players are used to playing multiple tables and they play some formula based on the numbers in the HUD. Live players suck in general, but beating them requires different skill sets.

My poker tracking app on my iPhone (PokerJournal, I don't believe it is supported any more) has a section where I can keep track of opponents (including writing notes on them). It also has 3 sliders associated with each opponent: one for looseness, one for aggressiveness and one random one (which I use for fishyness-versus-expertness). It ain't no HUD, but it helps.

GcluelesstrollingnoobG

There isn't any direct way to do this, of course. I sometimes end up thinking this way a little bit (I have deep online poker roots), but you really are better off thinking more conceptually than precisely about how various sorts of people play.

The one piece of information you can use to try to determine VPIP/PFR is if they're forced to showdown a mediocre hand they raised, you know they're at least that wide in that spot. So I mean, if someone opens in the HJ for $10 over 1/2 blinds and shows down QTo, you could reasonably figure they'd also open most suited aces, probably all PPs, suited connectors 87s+, and so on. I think QTo probably suggests they're around 30% in that spot, but in order to relate it backwards to true VPIP/PFR you have to remember they won't be folded to every time they have the more mediocre holdings there, and will presumably fold QTo facing a raise.

To some extent this is actually more granular than VPIP/PFR would be -- you know things about people from each position, instead of knowing things about them overall. VPIP is already a blended stat so it's not as useful as say ATS when they're in a steal spot.

One other thing -- if you ever see somebody who manages to align all of the edge spots on their chips make a raise, they have 99+ AQ+, maybe even tighter than that.

Personally, I think you have to think about it a different way. It's more of a player type than actual numbers. Kind of like GG's notes. My ranges come from how I know players play (limp, raise, what position, etc.) and what their bet sizes mean, which is extremely important. Once I have that info on them, I can range them much better.

My way of doing this is divided into a couple sections per player (I don’t think VPIP is as useful in live as online):

1. Their general preflop range and how they play it: Do they limp most of their range? Do they open with only broadways+? Do they only 3! QQ+? Do they limp/call way too loose a range?
2. Flop tendencies: Do they ever get aggressive with draws? Do they ever bluff with/without equity? How well do they size bets? Do they call bigger bets than they should with draws? Do they call any size bet with draws?
3. River tendencies: Do they ever bet for thin value? Do they overfold to aggression with decent made hands? Do they overcall aggression with decent made hands? Bet sizes when they want calls/folds? Do they ever bluff? (a solid portion don’t)

Once you get some answer for section 1 or 3, you can usually make some reasonable assumptions about other sections, but a small % of players are very strange and one section has very little correlation with another section.

***(very important!) With all of the above, pay specific attention to bet sizing tells. They are all over the place, but mean different things from different players.
Also, as a former online 6-max player you’ll probably need to train your mind to fold more. A huge % of live players don’t bluff or bet for thin value enough to make hero calling with weak/medium strength hands profitable.

Hope this is helpful.

+1

+2 - But I also do try to roughly estimate VPIP / PFR / and 3! if the game is 9 or 10 handed. Just taking an extra minute every time I get the button to recall limps / raises / 3 bets in the previous orbit. Estimations are pretty easy if we are dividing by 10 and approximating a 9 handed table knowing you'll be a little higher than the divide by 10 seems fair. If it's 8 handed or less I just use more of a gut feel rather than doing math and trying to remember an estimated number range.

The easiest way to get a VPIP is to look at how many hands they play per orbit. If it is one or less, it is about 10. If it is 2 per orbit, then it is 20. And so forth. As for VPR, anyone raising 1 or more times per orbit is going to stick out like sore thumb. You can count them. Everyone else is going to be well under 10, sometimes raising nothing other than QQ+.

I'm also noticing a bunch of snarky comments in the last couple of threads I've read. I see another one, and people are going to be taking a vacation from the forum.

We all have a built in HUD.

The sensors are mostly the eyes, and sometimes the ears.

The processor is between the ears.

Engage the sensors and process the resulting data.

Don't eye the T&A and don't watch the TV.

Analyze one player at a time, starting with the Villain on your left.

You can observe a lot just by watching.

It's more work than on line, but worth it.

Mental capital can never be taken from us.

Several good responses ITT.

How do you gauge opponents online with whom you only have a few hands? I'm guessing you don't assign much meaning to the observed VPIP/PFR (unless they're extreme) and mostly just go with the tendencies of the player population. Playing live works the same way; it's just that the baseline numbers for the player pool are different. And you have to pay attention

Seems like a waste of time to assign VPIP #s to players given the small sample sizes. It's possible for a LAG to go multiple orbits without playing a hand and it's also possible for the same player to raise a reasonable range 6 hands in a row. Relying solely on #s in a live game can be quite deceptive.

In regards to actually ranging opponents, that just takes experience. Unfortunately, your online background has ill-prepared you for this since you relied on a HUD. However, one way you could shorten the learning curve would be for you to put in some volume online without a HUD. Sure, the players are different and the game plays differently but it should improve your ability to range opponents.

Lot's of great advice/ideas. Very helpful

Thanks everyone