Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Time for a hero call? 1/2/4

04-13-2013 , 06:34 PM
Villain, okish middle aged irish dude. Not out of line too often but has had his hand caught in the jar more than never from my time playing with him over last 2 months or so. Playing on "level 2" as far I can tell, hasn't been that active this night, played and lost in maybe 3 hands in last 2 hours, no showdowns. Played in GBP can't use pound sign.

1/2/4 8 handed

fold
fold
fold
fold
Villain (380) Btn raise to 11
fold
Hero BB (350) calls A3
Straddle fold

Pot 27

Flop

45j

Hero checks
Villain checks

Pot 27

Turn 6

Hero bets 19
Villain calls quickly

Pot 65

River 5
Hero takes 15 seconds and checks
Villain bets 60

Thoughts?
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote
04-13-2013 , 06:38 PM
Fold. What are you beating that he would raise and then call turn? KQhh, 79s, and 89s? That's about it...
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote
04-13-2013 , 06:55 PM
Lead the flop with our gutter and bdfd. Turn is a great card, fire 2nd barrel. If we whiff the river, 1/2 pot unless he's sticky.
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote
04-13-2013 , 07:13 PM
Fold. You already made every right decision in this hand and it's time to move on.
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote
04-13-2013 , 07:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wj94
Fold. What are you beating that he would raise and then call turn? KQhh, 79s, and 89s? That's about it...
I think i disagree here, decent player raising straddled pot on the button then calling when somebody bets a 6 on the turn in live low stakes? Pretty wide range here, any 7 and 2 hearts for sure imo. Depending on his read on me then when i bet the 6 he might call with any 2 overs also. Then what hands can villain be betting near pot on river?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hand Shaker
Lead the flop with our gutter and bdfd. Turn is a great card, fire 2nd barrel. If we whiff the river, 1/2 pot unless he's sticky.
I was most likely going to check raise flop depending on his cbet size. Agree with turn line. Thoughts on hand as played?
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote
04-13-2013 , 07:21 PM
You cannot even beat a big chunk of his "bluffs" since Ax hands that he might bluff with on the river have kickers better than yours. Since you can't even beat a big portion of his bluff range, there is no reason to call.

You might breifly consider check/raise bluffing on the river, but given your read, I think he will call a check raise on the river pretty light, certainly with any J, and Jx hands are in his range even if he deceptively checked back on the flop, so I can't see enough fold equity to justify a c/r bluff in this spot either.

Fold.
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote
04-13-2013 , 07:42 PM
When he checks the flop and calls the turn quickly, his range is a lot of draws. Lead river as played for ~40..now this is villain dependant that he can fold and views you as a winner / solid.

Would like to know about his river potting range. You said he's not out of line often, but is capable of bluffing. We beat loads of heart draws. So, the question is does he pot for value, or...because your line of check / lead / check looks very weak, he's sniffing it out and stealing your money.

I'm a station and call sometimes here. Villains line looks like a busted draw.
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote
04-13-2013 , 07:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Albert Moulton
You cannot even beat a big chunk of his "bluffs" since Ax hands that he might bluff with on the river have kickers better than yours. Since you can't even beat a big portion of his bluff range, there is no reason to call.

You might breifly consider check/raise bluffing on the river, but given your read, I think he will call a check raise on the river pretty light, certainly with any J, and Jx hands are in his range even if he deceptively checked back on the flop, so I can't see enough fold equity to justify a c/r bluff in this spot either.

Fold.
Against a villain like this can we not think he will check back most hands he could turn into a bluff that already beat us? I wonder what our hand looks like to villain and then how he reacts on river after we check. The river bet is very close to pot and this could be seen as pretty polarising. Given that our line isn't strong then there should be more bluffs in his PSB river range here than value bets? I have disagreed with the replies so far but not because I was right (or wrong). I just want to play devils advocate here as I have ran this hand through my head quite a few times and would like some third party analysis from every angle.
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote
04-13-2013 , 08:01 PM
^are you villain? ...the old switch-a-roo?
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote
04-13-2013 , 08:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hand Shaker
^are you villain? ...the old switch-a-roo?
Nah, I wouldn't dare make myself irish.
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote
04-13-2013 , 09:48 PM
Threads like this are 100% villain dependent. He's you're villain so we can't really help you. I'd make this call against a bunch of people in my player pool - $60 is never a value bet after you check (give up) the river. That said it would suck if he turns over something like AT and wins anyway.
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote
04-13-2013 , 10:00 PM
I would fold pre...
Ap, c/f river..
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote
04-13-2013 , 10:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bombonanza
I would fold pre...
Ap, c/f river..
Fold pre is ****
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote
04-14-2013 , 01:34 AM
Fold. You don't even beat Ace high here because of your kicker.
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote
04-14-2013 , 01:36 AM
If this were on TV call then tighten up for the next year or so and get rich. In all seriousness tho, lay that monster down.
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote
04-14-2013 , 02:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pookakke
Against a villain like this can we not think he will check back most hands he could turn into a bluff that already beat us? I wonder what our hand looks like to villain and then how he reacts on river after we check. The river bet is very close to pot and this could be seen as pretty polarising. Given that our line isn't strong then there should be more bluffs in his PSB river range here than value bets? I have disagreed with the replies so far but not because I was right (or wrong). I just want to play devils advocate here as I have ran this hand through my head quite a few times and would like some third party analysis from every angle.
Point is his hand is pretty polarized. He shouldn't ever have JQ+ or JJ. I don't see why he would be spazzing with 77+, he's got great showdown value with those. Do you think he raises the turn with the straight? If so then we can take that out of his range.

I'm honestly thinking you're good here a large % of the time, if you c/b/c I think he checks back AQ+... Interesting post, you've still got balls to make that call.
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote
04-14-2013 , 02:03 AM
Main question is does he spazz out with 77-1010 there and if he realizes there's showdown value with AK. :-( I still fold.
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote
04-14-2013 , 02:29 AM
This guys described as decent/good. So this hand comes down to his perception of you.

Your line, flat pre/check/bet/check certainly doesn't scream strength. Yet villain fires ~psb on the river after being checked to. What does he expect you to call with after taking this line?

At first glance I would say this is a call because your perceived range shouldn't be able to call that bet size. Since he's thinking "level 2 " he should know this. So its quite possible the big bet is designed to look bluffy and get looked up.

That's why it total comes down to what he thinks of you and how you play. The more he thinks of you the more I fold, the less the more I call.

Another thing to consider is how thin does he value bet? This would be a nice spot to bomb top pair/ middle pair because he should be checking them back a lot. His bet looks polarized. But again, this could be by design if he thinks your thinking on a higher level as well.
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote
04-14-2013 , 03:40 AM
The more I think about it, its hard for him to have a lot of big hands here.

flopped sets, straights and the rare 5. I think sets almost always raise the 6h turn. Straights would be raising the vast majority of the time to.

I do think he could have a fair amount of pairs and some bigger A's that he turned in to a bluff.

In light of this, raising the river might be the best option. The way the hand played with the line he took, the only hands that he could have that call a raise are random 5x's.

You would fold out virtually everything that beats you here.

You would be repping pretty thin yourself, but your line would be consistent w/ a 5 or a flopped set that missed a check/raise when the flop checked through. Couple that with the rarity of people check/raising rivers as a bluff at these stakes, and I feel like he folds almost everything.

He just doesn't have much of a value range at all, where as you can credibly rep the full houses as well as 5x, even straights.

I think you fold out better. At the same time its real hard for him to have a hand strong enough to call with.
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote
04-14-2013 , 04:08 AM
I agree with fold pre. If there were several limpers to V and you could try to start a chain then I'd be more okay with the call. As played and as has been said, you can't even beat most of V's bluffing range, so it's still a fold on the river too.
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote
04-14-2013 , 04:12 AM
I fold pre
lead the flop
possibly barrel the turn
evaluate the river

As played I fold
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote
04-14-2013 , 07:26 AM
What's with all the fold pre? We're doing fine against his button open range with a hand that does alright on different flops no?
If he was bluffing with all his better Ahighs and doing something weird with 77-1010 then yeah I can find a fold pretty quick. However I don't think V bets this much with 77-1010 and he definitely goes to showdown for a portion of his better Ahighs.
I hadn't thought about a c/r on the river but it's definitely an option I should have considered. Thinking about it now and I feel we would almost certainly get villain to fold any pair and a straight. However I just don't see him taking this line with something like this. Straights are going to be raising this turn and his pairs are going to be a smaller bet on the river, somewhere around 40 I think. As they seem like a definite value bet to me.
There's got to be benefits to making this call and being wrong too though. Pretty valuable showdown here, for information and to build and image.
Could somebody stove a decent range for V here?
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote
04-14-2013 , 11:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patchohare
The more I think about it, its hard for him to have a lot of big hands here.

flopped sets, straights and the rare 5. I think sets almost always raise the 6h turn. Straights would be raising the vast majority of the time to.

I do think he could have a fair amount of pairs and some bigger A's that he turned in to a bluff.

In light of this, raising the river might be the best option. The way the hand played with the line he took, the only hands that he could have that call a raise are random 5x's.

You would fold out virtually everything that beats you here.

You would be repping pretty thin yourself, but your line would be consistent w/ a 5 or a flopped set that missed a check/raise when the flop checked through. Couple that with the rarity of people check/raising rivers as a bluff at these stakes, and I feel like he folds almost everything.

He just doesn't have much of a value range at all, where as you can credibly rep the full houses as well as 5x, even straights.

I think you fold out better. At the same time its real hard for him to have a hand strong enough to call with.
Noooooo. Raising here looks like a missed draw and is extremely exploitable and obvious to a thinking player.
Time for a hero call? 1/2/4 Quote

      
m