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Old 07-25-2017, 12:09 PM   #1
Javanewt
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Tight image; bluff the river?

1/3 w/ $10 rock, 9 handed, poker room with lots of regs

High-hand promo has brought in a lot of players who don’t play often.

Villain (HJ, $600) late-20s/early-30s white guy. Comfortable at the table and knows some of the regs, but I don’t remember playing with him. Based on looks and demeanor, he doesn’t seem gambly, but he doesn’t seem overly good, either. If he were one of the better players, I’m pretty sure I’d see him here more often. It’s a great game.

Hero (SB, covers) middle-age white woman. Most of the players know me. Just because of who I am I’m considered very tight. I just moved to this table, so little history with V. We’ve been in a few uneventful hands that didn’t go to showdown but not against each other. He did see me shove over a $75 bet into a $150 pot on AsTs8c board, but the guy folded.

I have the $10 rock.

EP fit/fold player calls $10, folds to V who raises to $30, folds, I call in SB w/ 7s9s, BB folds, EP calls.

(I know a lot of you would fold pre, but I didn’t consider it. I have suited one-gappers and $30 ($20 to me) is as cheap as it gets pre in this game. I know I can use my image when possible. BB is never 3betting w/o AA, KK (he might flat, though, because of the high hand, which I will never understand). I know EP is calling, but he has a suited A or face cards and maybe a small pair.)

Flop ($87): Qh6h8h

I check, EP checks, V bets $45, I call, EP folds.

(I don’t think V’d ever put me on the hand I have, so if I hit I will get paid, although I would not be thrilled with another heart. Anyone raise here? I think V has a pair, AK, AJ type hands. He could have a Q.)

Turn ($177): Qh6h8h 3s
H checks, V checks.

(No sense in betting now. Once V checks, I don’t put him much. I think he’s betting anything Q or better.)

River ($177): Qh6h8h3s Qc

I think this is a great card for me. He has to be worried about hearts or a Q, and he can't call with much unless he was slow playing AhXh on turn. If I bet, how much?
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Old 07-25-2017, 12:14 PM   #2
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

I think it´s an obvious bet, you are at the very bottom of your range, but you don´t need to bet much. you target his unpaired one-heart hands, I wouldn´t expect him to fold any pair very often on such a runout. 70 to 80 imo.
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Old 07-25-2017, 01:50 PM   #3
Jarretman
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

3bet > call > fold pre.

I'm not happy about the flop. Much rather turn our hand into a bluff on the flop and raise than call. I'd raise or fold flop I guess. Kinda ****ty spot.

As played river it's a must bet.
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Old 07-25-2017, 02:04 PM   #4
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

3bet pre is not a bad idea, but I'm not thrilled with it OOP. I'd have to go $90+ and obviously fold to a 4bet. EP might just call hoping to hit the high hand (amazing how these people play) and then I'm against two players. Plus, I'd have to continue on almost all flops then give up on turn if I don't hit. Don't want to invest that much when I can call for $20 and play this hand vs. two opponents.
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Old 07-25-2017, 03:42 PM   #5
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

If our 3! range is value hands and bluffs, I'd want the bluffs to be the best part of my range that can't profitably call OOP. I'd put a weak S1G in that area (though tbh I'm easily in the fold pre camp). No blockers but decent equity vs most of his opening range that merely calls the 3.

As played, if I was V I would probably look up a river bet with 99+, the Q makes it just as unlikely you have TP as him. It doesn't sound like you have evidence that he can fold a made hand, so it's tough to know how much you can leverage your image. But all we want to do is fold out better no pair hands (and baby PP), so a small bet should be +EV. As said above, $70 sounds good.
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Old 07-25-2017, 04:07 PM   #6
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

Criminal not to bet. Has fairly weak range at this point. Expect calls from 77+, we block 77, and 99 which helps a little. More importantly we don't block AK,AJ, A10,.


Sizing on river could go either way. Larger sizing may get some PP to fold

How much would you bet if you had A2hh.

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Old 07-25-2017, 04:45 PM   #7
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
(I know a lot of you would fold pre, but I didn’t consider it. I have suited one-gappers and $30 ($20 to me) is as cheap as it gets pre in this game. I know I can use my image when possible.
Real real bad thought process pre.
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Old 07-25-2017, 04:47 PM   #8
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

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Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
Real real bad thought process pre.
Why? This is a good hand vs. these players. I know it's going 3-way (maybe 4), it's cheap, and it's a good hand to see a flop with.

If you are folding these hands, you are not going to play any hands, which is fine, but I'm happy with this.

BTW, would you like to comment on river?
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Old 07-25-2017, 06:42 PM   #9
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

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Why? This is a good hand vs. these players. I know it's going 3-way (maybe 4), it's cheap, and it's a good hand to see a flop with.

If you are folding these hands, you are not going to play any hands, which is fine, but I'm happy with this.

BTW, would you like to comment on river?
Pre -
My initial commentary refers to a thought processes that has no impact on making money. "Cheap" and "...Using my image" is not a professional approach when deciding how play/construct your ranges.
If anything, you should recognize just how expensive it actually is to flat and if you are really looking to exploit your own image then you should compare flatting to the EV of 3b pre if you expect to find folds early in the hand.
This 1/3/10 game doesn't sound very deep, but seems very big. The gameflow is going to be somewhat important to how you want to adjust (if you're adjusting) your ranges/how you play them so that you might want to be very aggressive at the margins or very tight preflop.



River - I would likely just ck-give up a lot with this combo. If compelled to bluff, I would rather look at the prospects of ck-r > leading river anyway.
It's a very messy equation trying to come up with a +EV bluff and you cannot fall victim to the fallacy ITT that you have to bet your very worst hand at 100% frequency just because you're "at the bottom of your range".
It doesn't work that way. There are more important factors to consider.

Sauhund is likely far closer to Vs actual calling range than you were in OP, and when trying to solve for the right bluff size, you also have to allow for the possibility that V decides to re-bluff sometimes with some hands.
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Old 07-25-2017, 06:54 PM   #10
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

You have to bet river. V can fold Qx. You have way more full house than he in your rnge too. Bet it pretty big i think. WP so far
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Old 07-25-2017, 10:38 PM   #11
Javanewt
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

I guess I should have made it clear that by cheap I mean $20 is a normal preflop raise in the 1/3 game without the Rock. Often bigger. It was quite deep in spots. This is the main table. The other tables did not have Rocks. Sometimes I am folding the hand, sometimes I'm 3betting. This time I called. I mainly didn't 3 but because I wasn't sure of his 4betting range, and I still had two players behind me. I think the call was just fine, although I knew a few players here would disagree.
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Old 07-25-2017, 10:38 PM   #12
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

River bet seems like a good idea more because of board texture and villain's turn check than hero's tight image. He's never checking behind any flopped flush on the turn but you have a decent amount of flushes in your range. I'd bet a flat 100. If he has Qx he's probably calling and if he had a set and checked back to boat up he's obviously calling. Most other holdings he's letting go i believe.
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Old 07-25-2017, 10:41 PM   #13
Javanewt
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

Also, this has nothing to do with being at the bottom of my range. This has to do with a read based on his actions and how he / the table perceives me.
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Old 07-25-2017, 11:06 PM   #14
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

Fold pre
Fold flop (or raise but almost always fold)
River $120
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Old 07-25-2017, 11:15 PM   #15
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
Pre -
My initial commentary refers to a thought processes that has no impact on making money. "Cheap" and "...Using my image" is not a professional approach when deciding how play/construct your ranges.
If anything, you should recognize just how expensive it actually is to flat and if you are really looking to exploit your own image then you should compare flatting to the EV of 3b pre if you expect to find folds early in the hand.
This 1/3/10 game doesn't sound very deep, but seems very big. The gameflow is going to be somewhat important to how you want to adjust (if you're adjusting) your ranges/how you play them so that you might want to be very aggressive at the margins or very tight preflop.

River - I would likely just ck-give up a lot with this combo. If compelled to bluff, I would rather look at the prospects of ck-r > leading river anyway.
Spot on first paragraph

C/r river w/ effectively nut low blockers seems spew - the three combos of 68 suited (which should be folded pre but if 97 is in our range 68 should be too) should be much better.
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:48 AM   #16
Javanewt
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

This table doesn't think 79 is in my range. When you see a 49-year-old woman call a raise from the SB and call a bet on that flop, what range do you put her on? Seriously.
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:24 AM   #17
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

Call pre is ok but flop is a fold. You're drawing to 6 outs, sometimes drawing dead and have little implied odds. Any hand with one heart you would possibly have in this spot is better than 97.
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:33 AM   #18
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

Lots of money being lit on fire here op
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:37 AM   #19
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
Also, this has nothing to do with being at the bottom of my range. This has to do with a read based on his actions and how he / the table perceives me.
No offense, but this is just lol.
Of course being at the bottom of your range has something to do with your play.
I guess you´d chose another line or at least are hoping for a different result if you have four queens, KThh or 99 compared to your nine high.
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:52 AM   #20
Javanewt
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

"This" being my decision on whether to bluff the river. I was actually planning to bluff any heart, but I thought the Q was even better. Do you guys have a range of hands for V that plays this way that can call a river bet from me? Does he really call a MAWW on a three flush, paired board with 99?

Would have been really interesting to post this as V. I'm pretty sure everyone here would have a said "snap fold" to a bet by a MAWW on the river.
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:51 AM   #21
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

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Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
"This" being my decision on whether to bluff the river. I was actually planning to bluff any heart, but I thought the Q was even better. Do you guys have a range of hands for V that plays this way that can call a river bet from me? Does he really call a MAWW on a three flush, paired board with 99?

Would have been really interesting to post this as V. I'm pretty sure everyone here would have a said "snap fold" to a bet by a MAWW on the river.
I don´t think so tbh, just because you´re a middle aged white woman doesn´t mean you can have a lot of unpaired high heart hands.
I don´t think I´d personally bet too many hands on the flop I wouldn´t double barrel on such a blank turn, so dunno what my range would be, but let´s assume I´d have a ZOMG gotta cbet brainfart with A8ss or 77-JJ and checked the turn, I likely snap you off if you bet something like half pot.

as the hand played out, you´re really repping a pretty small valuerange otr.
MAWW playing live poker probably means tight to you, and probably means likely-button-clicker to me

I´d be pretty surprised if I called and saw your hand tho fwiw, meaning I really don´t like how you played it up until the river...

Last edited by sauhund; 07-26-2017 at 10:55 AM. Reason: I don´t speak English very well
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:55 AM   #22
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

Results:

I bet $85 and he folded. Claimed I caught up on the river, but didn't show. I asked if he could really beat my Q on the flop and he said yes, but people don't always tell the truth at the poker table. His friend sitting next to him did see his hand and agreed, though.
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Old 07-26-2017, 11:11 AM   #23
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
Results:

I bet $85 and he folded. Claimed I caught up on the river, but didn't show. I asked if he could really beat my Q on the flop and he said yes, but people don't always tell the truth at the poker table. His friend sitting next to him did see his hand and agreed, though.
Hehehe, well, I think that happened to work out decently enough for you...
I hope you weren´t targeting AA and KK with your bet

Tbh I find it hard to believe though that someone would play Qx+ this way on the turn.
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Old 07-26-2017, 11:12 AM   #24
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

auto jam spot
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Old 07-26-2017, 11:29 AM   #25
Javanewt
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Re: Tight image; bluff the river?

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Hehehe, well, I think that happened to work out decently enough for you...
I hope you weren´t targeting AA and KK with your bet

Tbh I find it hard to believe though that someone would play Qx+ this way on the turn.
Definitely did not put him on AA or KK, but who knows? The flop was a little scary for him if he doesn't have the A or K of hearts, but LOL if he did have AA or KK.

Not sure a naked Q should bet this turn? Why would you? You are not folding better and you can't handle a raise.
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