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thoughts on making a move in this spot? thoughts on making a move in this spot?

07-25-2019 , 06:05 PM
$2/3 game.

main V ($500): BTN - He has been very active and somewhat aggressive. He is capable of making big bets with nothing but has also shown up with the best hand after big bets. I don't recall him making big call downs at that point although later he did bet and call a decently big all-in with AK on KJ9r board.

H ($400): LJ - been card dead for the 90 minutes or so I've been at the table. Won a few small pots but otherwise been very quiet. Probably viewed as extremely tight.

Preflop: early position raises to $12, one MP caller, H calls with AJo, V calls and BB calls.

Flop: ($60) T62rainbow

Checks to H: with only one person behind and everyone before seeming uninterested with this extremely dry boring flop, I stab at the pot for $25 (it might have been $30, can't remember exactly)

V: thinks for a few seconds and then raises to $75.

Everyone folds back to me. I figure V is capped at a T and there really isn't anything else he can have. He is the type of player that would re-raise JJ+ preflop. Why would he raise this board with 2 pair or a set? what two pair can he even have here? The only straight draw he could have is a gut-shot. I can still have sets in my range so a call with the plan of check-raising the turn or leading the river if he checks back the turn could represent that. Or, raising his 3bet could represent the set now.

Since his hand is almost face-up a pair of Ts, what do you think of making a move here? If so, does raising to $175 seem like the right amount?

I wound up deciding to fold and he showed his hand. I'll reveal what he had after some in-hand thoughts feedback

Last edited by Jasaka; 07-25-2019 at 06:22 PM.
thoughts on making a move in this spot? Quote
07-25-2019 , 06:15 PM
I don't mind pre-flop. The 25 bet on the flop looks exactly like it does to you aswell as villain it sounds like, a stab at the pot. I woulda bet 35-40 in this spot seeing as how your seen as tight V might just flat and if re raised you can safely fold.

That being said I bet a 3-bet in this spot would make V fold enough to make it profitable. Especially with a tight wad Image I have made this play before a few times but have to be aggro on the turn and river.

As played I would fold aswell.
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07-25-2019 , 06:22 PM
I prefer 3b or fold preflop over calling, AJo isn't a hand that plays great multiway. 3b if EP is weak/loose, fold if EP is tough/tight

As played, just give up on the flop. Multiway pot live where people don't like folding and nothing to draw to, no reason to even take a stab here imo. Also don't see why you think he is face-up as top pair after raising. He could easily have 2 pair or a set. He could also have complete air and be attacking your perceived weakness, but you are OOP and have nothing. Just give up and wait for better spots in the future.
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07-25-2019 , 06:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasaka
H ($400): LJ - been card dead for the 90 minutes or so I've been at the table. Won a few small pots but otherwise been very quiet. Probably viewed as extremely tight.
Here's your leak. Your image is NIT, V believes you'll raise your winners and fold most non-nut hands to aggression.

Fold the flop. I wouldn't even stab the pot OTF, fwiw.

Easy money
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07-25-2019 , 08:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by trucdouf
Here's your leak. Your image is NIT, V believes you'll raise your winners and fold most non-nut hands to aggression.

Fold the flop. I wouldn't even stab the pot OTF, fwiw.

Easy money
I wouldn't so much call this a leak - it's not like i'm going out of my way to be a nit; just trying to be patient and have a solid balanced opening range that doesn't include absolute garbage. In this 90 minute session, I got almost all no hands in my preflop raising range (ATo+, Axs, connectors, pocket pairs, etc). So, my image at that moment to him was extremely tight. Some sessions when I'm getting better cards I'm probably viewed as pretty LAG.

Because I had been playing so tightly, that is why I considered a 3b - I'm assuming he's assuming I'll fold all my non-nut hands to his aggression. Then, he has to fold all his non-nut hands. Problem for him is that he doesn't really have many nut-hands on this board that would play this way.

Putting the possibility that he's only raising because he thinks I'll fold aside, I imagine a bet in this situation, on this board, after a bunch of checks and only one person left to act, with my image, works at least 70% of the time.
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07-25-2019 , 08:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by football0020
I prefer 3b or fold preflop over calling, AJo isn't a hand that plays great multiway. 3b if EP is weak/loose, fold if EP is tough/tight

As played, just give up on the flop. Multiway pot live where people don't like folding and nothing to draw to, no reason to even take a stab here imo. Also don't see why you think he is face-up as top pair after raising. He could easily have 2 pair or a set. He could also have complete air and be attacking your perceived weakness, but you are OOP and have nothing. Just give up and wait for better spots in the future.
At least my thought process during the hand was...this guy has shown so far to have a reasonable preflop calling range. T6,T2,62 (even suited) are not in that range. He could have TT 66 22, but he wouldn't raise on this extremely dry board and allow a tight player to get away. Of course, I could have been wrong, but that was my read on him at the time.
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07-25-2019 , 09:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasaka
I wouldn't so much call this a leak - it's not like i'm going out of my way to be a nit; just trying to be patient and have a solid balanced opening range that doesn't include absolute garbage. In this 90 minute session, I got almost all no hands in my preflop raising range (ATo+, Axs, connectors, pocket pairs, etc). So, my image at that moment to him was extremely tight. Some sessions when I'm getting better cards I'm probably viewed as pretty LAG.

Because I had been playing so tightly, that is why I considered a 3b - I'm assuming he's assuming I'll fold all my non-nut hands to his aggression. Then, he has to fold all his non-nut hands. Problem for him is that he doesn't really have many nut-hands on this board that would play this way.

Putting the possibility that he's only raising because he thinks I'll fold aside, I imagine a bet in this situation, on this board, after a bunch of checks and only one person left to act, with my image, works at least 70% of the time.
My point is to find cheap opportunities limping to keep a better image when carddead. I don't mean open up wide, but even 1 hand per 2 rounds will keep you from getting pegged as a nit. Your image and knowledge of V will give you a better read of situations like this.

Easy money
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07-25-2019 , 09:40 PM
Fold/3b pre
Probs not stabbing otf, but ofc snap fold to the raise
thoughts on making a move in this spot? Quote
07-25-2019 , 10:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasaka
At least my thought process during the hand was...this guy has shown so far to have a reasonable preflop calling range. T6,T2,62 (even suited) are not in that range. He could have TT 66 22, but he wouldn't raise on this extremely dry board and allow a tight player to get away. Of course, I could have been wrong, but that was my read on him at the time.
I feel like you shouldn't even be in this spot though, your thought process should've been "what is EP stack size/range/etc preflop" and then you could've 3b or fold from there... Wondering what your thought process was preflop that led you to a call, because I feel that that is the worst of the three options.
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07-26-2019 , 12:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by football0020
I feel like you shouldn't even be in this spot though, your thought process should've been "what is EP stack size/range/etc preflop" and then you could've 3b or fold from there... Wondering what your thought process was preflop that led you to a call, because I feel that that is the worst of the three options.
Fair enough on my decision to call instead of raise or fold preflop. But what if I didn’t have specifically AJ. What if I had JT or 78s or XX. My thought process about what he has in this situation is still the same. In the end I folded, but re-raising is something I seriously considered during the hand because of what I thought he had and my whether he Would fold it or not.
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07-26-2019 , 01:17 AM
^^ My experience from being a NIT like 8 hand vpip in 8 hours you can do alot with ATC.
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07-26-2019 , 05:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasaka
I imagine a bet in this situation . . . works at least 70% of the time.
A cbet after a pfr works about 48% of the time HU on the flop. If you assume any flop hits someone about a 1/3 of the time, with 4 villains it means that about 80% of time one of them will be good and isn't folding to a bet.

Do less imagining at the poker table. Sorry your trash got bluffed by even worse trash. The only people who never get bluffed are calling stations.
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07-26-2019 , 06:57 AM
I actually like the idea of making a move here. I'm not sure why others are being so critical of you for the image you've cultivated. There's nothing wrong with having a really tight image as long as you use it to your advantage, and this is a spot in which you could do so. IMO, villain here has either air, AT, or a gut shot with a BDFD. 2/3 are folding, and AT might fold if your image is as tight as you think it is. That said, if you're going to make your move, you need to make a big, polarizing bet. You can't price him in.
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07-26-2019 , 12:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
A cbet after a pfr works about 48% of the time HU on the flop. If you assume any flop hits someone about a 1/3 of the time, with 4 villains it means that about 80% of time one of them will be good and isn't folding to a bet.

Do less imagining at the poker table. Sorry your trash got bluffed by even worse trash. The only people who never get bluffed are calling stations.
I agree that in general a stab at the pot against 4 villians doesn't work very often. I actually don't take stabs against a huge field often (usually only when my read is that nobody cares about the pot). But in this exact spot, the board was about as dry and as terrible as it can be for a preflop raised hand, 3 villains (including preflop raiser) had already checked to me and my read was they looked very disappointed and uninterested with this flop, and there was only one person behind me left to act. So, all of this taken together, I thought a stab had a higher than usual frequency of getting through.
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07-26-2019 , 12:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasaka
Because I had been playing so tightly, that is why I considered a 3b - I'm assuming he's assuming I'll fold all my non-nut hands to his aggression.
T62 rainbow, what is a nutted hand?

Would you 3bet with such hand? Answer is no. You would call and CR turn or bet big on river. That's what people do with nutted hand on T62 rainbow board.

Your problem is that you are not reading the board texture, just your image, V's image, and action.

This isn't a bad spot to stab, but it is also a great spot for button to make a move.
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