Hey all this hand comes from a 1/3 nl at my local cardhouse.

Just a line check on value betting vs fish

I raised the previous two hands and double barreled 8847 rainbow board in the previous hand and got a fold on the turn. Game is typical 1/3 with mostly limp passive players. I am young kid only raising preflop so my image is probably a little aggressive for what its worth given this is my 3rd hand in a row.

UTG, +1, lowjack limp and I pick up 108o in the cutoff. UTG and +1 have 200$ stacks, lowjack has 300$ and I cover. Blinds and button are passive and unlikely to raise if I limp here so I actually think all three options are on the table. Probably fine to fold because I just raised two hands in a row. I'm not super high on overlimping and think I have postflop edge so I made it 20$ to go, UTG and +1 called.

Flop(60$ after rake) 8 3 4 rainbow

checks to me I bet 30 both limpers call

turn (150$) 7 completing the rainbow

Checks to me. What do you do?

Fold pre.

I mean, if you’re going to raise it up...

the only reason you’re doing it is to screw with peoples minds. I mean to create this meta game in which you eventually get people to stack off light. And the problem with that, at 1/3, is rake/tips.

You need effective stacks to be way higher for 10 8 off to be worth mixing in for a third in a row raise.

Size up on the flop imo. I check turn.

Fold >>> limp >>>>>>> raise pre

As played cbet is fine, turn is a check most of the time for pot control

I just overlimp here. A big part of our postflop edge just $200 deep in $60 pots is that we have the best hand on the flop; we're highly unlikely to end up with that with this hand. Overlimp gets us into a pot for very cheap most likely in position on the world, and we have a bit of an aggro image that might get paid off if we hit postflop. Folding is also fine but I look for an excuse to play hands in LP since I'm so tight OOP.

I also cbet because there's also a chance I now have the best hand and I'm just looking to protect it and take it down now. On this dry board I probably go no more than $25 and might even just go a 1/3 PSB of $20. I'm done with the hand UI when they both call.

I'm not putting a single penny more in this pot after the flop cbet is called in two spots, especially when the only draw gets there on the turn.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Nothing wrong with posting this of course, but if you are not confident how to play this board post w T8 then you probably should just fold pre.

AP, just recognize 87 and 65 got there, you already barreled your opponents off overs, so calling ranges are going to be ahead. Check and try to showdown your hand, it's too weak to call a river lead.

As for pre, you really should just let it go. Do NOT overlimp this.

G can you speak more on your recommendation for a cbet sizing of $20-$25? I’m seeing this as an invitation for gunshots, overs and backdoors to put in calls which seems like too much facing 2 opponents.

Unlike most others here, I don't believe the size of our bet, so long as it is "reasonable", has any bearing on whether people call the flop or not. You're either a player who chases overs / gutshots / backdoors or you're not, and whether we bet $20 vs $40 into this pot (both reasonable bets) makes pretty much 0% difference in calling frequency. So simply bet the amount that starts defining the pot size that you want, and we don't want a big pot, so we bet small.

Gingeneral,imoG

GandyoumaytorchmeG I was thinking a sizing of $50-$60...but I do absolutely agree with you for the $20-$40 indifference

Just way too big.

Also, sizing absolutely has an impact on calling ranges. If you bet $3 you are going to get called buy a wider range than $30. $60, narrower than $30...

I appreciate the feedback and I agree with you that if I can't play this board postflop with T8 there's no way its a profitable open. I will not debate its certainly a very marginal open preflop and the bottom of my range.

Main reason I posted this hand was to get other opinions on whether I proceeded correctly postflop to evaluate if I can open this profitably.

I guess I’m still not satisfied with an argument against mine for pricing out a wide range of holdings (eg gutshots, overs, backdoors) against two opponents.

I would like to continue this discussion and may do some calcs off forum to get a better understanding.

I guess I need to figure out how to mark this thread.

This raise pre is really bad. Like you have T8o. You raise to this size and now look, you're in a 3 SPR scenario. What are you going to get them to fold postflop if you hit a board you can barrel off on? What are you going to get value on?

AP the fact that you're even asking this question shows what a mistake preflop was. You have $150 left into a pot of $150 on a straight drawy board w/ top pair against two fish. Shove it in and let the cards fall as they may. However I can see the merit of not going for value here since, after all, we're in a hand against two other players at this stage.

But really, clean up preflop. Limon puts it best...

I was referring to any "reasonable" sized bet, of which $3 into $60 isn't (just as $150 into $60 isn't). It's another disconnect I have with this forum, but there is no significant difference in calling frequency between all "reasonable" bets (if you want to argue an insignificant ~5% difference between the top and low ends, fine, but it's fairly moot), imo.

Gbaseyoursizeonhowbigapotyouwanttoplay,imoG

Hey look, i’m Not going to beat myself up over the difference between potish sized bets vs smaller. I like my strategy for this hand...i’m Willing to discuss more but I don’t know if we have a go to solution given the parameters. I do think we’re getting more folds, that we need in this case, with the larger cbet. I mean I appreciate what discussion there has been, but i’m Sticking to my guns on this one. I really want to learn though, if there’s a better approach here

I get it, and actually I meant to add to my post bc I agree 5 or 60 isn’t the same discussion as 20 or 40. My point though was that quantifying the extremes can help you find a middle point more easily (aka finding calling thresholds) and to me that means there is a lot more sensitivity to 40 or 20 than you let on. If we vibe a player to be tight and the midpoint is 30ish then maybe size down even if you’re laying a better price. Vice versa for looser players.

How’s 8T doing against a $60 calling range?
How’s 8T doing against a $20 calling range?

Are you so in tune w opponent calling ranges and yours that you routinely know what sizing ‘prices out’ you opponent, on the flop no less?

1. Far less likely to get calls from overs, backdoors, gutshots.

2. Far more likely to get calls from overs, backdoors, gutshots.

I wanted to be able to play the turn better...so I choose option 1.

So only better calls.

So worse could call?

Better than what? Now you're bluffing w top pair. I like option 2.

^Remember there are two villains in the hand as well.

I’m done discussing this one as I just don’t have anything more to add. I’m not sure why other people won’t comment (bet sizing people! bet sizing!) as I would like to rail a discussion between more knowledgeable people.

If anyone can comment. Start from the very top. What should the cbet size be? I believe it should be pot sized. Others don’t. I’m concerned if my desire to make things easier for the turn is in fact exactly how you lose value.

You're not going to make money potting 843r with just any range against the majority of 1/3 lineups.

Preflop has really set up a very weird postflop spot regarding betsizing, imo.

On the one hand, the SPR is lol 3 (which means stacks can get in trivially in 2 streets) and we has TP. There's probably some argument for committing here and simply PSBing the flop to get the rest in on the turn and living with results.

But even though I'm all about SPR, as G always says, we can't just turn our brain off, and I think this is one of those spots. In this case, due to the weakness of my hand, I'm not convinced PSB/shoving for stacks is going to be profitable against all but the worst of opponents. So I attempt to not commit for stacks, and just bet an amount on the flop that will take the pot down (which is really what we want to happen), which is any "reasonable" bet, and otherwise attempt to get to showdown with no more money going in / bloating the pot.

But this is the second recent thread where preflop has really setup a weird spot postflop (the other being one you also commented in where we ended up 3betting TT and seeing an SPR 1 pot 3ways with an overpair, where in general we mostly should be trivially committing and yet in this case I actually argued for a fold). For the most part, this comes back to preflop, where I don' t believe we should be raising/reraising if we're not comfortable committing with TP in a very small SPR pot.

GcluelessbetsizingnoobG

You know what...I didn’t even realize stack sizes...or I should say now that I really imagine a chip stack in front of me...I think in reality I would absolutely not put myself in that type of position by potting the flop.

Unfortunately (or fortunately), I do still find myself potting if we’re playing deep.

If we're playing deep (i.e. big SPR) where obviously we're not commited then PSBing with just TP in general seems really bad to me. Not with regards to what is calling us, but rather in regards to our overall goal (which should be not to build a big pot with a mediocre hand).

GimoG

Great! I’m really gonna have to go do some research on this dayum hand now.

Yea, I may have developed a bad habit in modern online poker...this is where I started potting in spots like this....some significant percentage of the time anyways...certainly not always...but yea, it’s definitely a thing for me.

PSBing is fine (and perhaps even optimal, although it's situational) if committed; if not committed, it's really meh, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG