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Thin value?? Checked back to on the river with 2nd nut flush on paired board Thin value?? Checked back to on the river with 2nd nut flush on paired board

03-28-2018 , 04:02 PM
Looking for general feedback / criticism on how to approach this hand / how I thought about this hand.

2/5. Sunday Afternoon, so not super surprising but table is mostly regs, solid looking players. Maybe one limped pot in the past hour. Average stack is close to 200bb. A couple of fish have entered the table and busted out.

Hero probably has a relatively loose image, has generally been playing aggressive (squeezing, raising post-flop). Have been at the table for a little over an hour, have 3bet bluffed people and showed on two occasions. Probably youngest guy at the table. But who knows if people have been paying attention to me (and if that affects how they play against me).

Villain is nerdy looking, headphones in, nice guy, late 20s Asian. Definitely a reg. He just painfully folded the 2nd nuts to a sick river re-raise shove maybe half an hour ago (which was the right fold, the guy tabled the nut flush). I read him as a disciplined player who doesn’t get out of line and good decision making skills. Tight, maybe a little too passive. Just my read, nothing more.

Hero is on the button with KJhh with 1500 behind. Villain is in the BB ~1000.

Someone in early position raises to 25. 3 players call before action gets to me. Hero calls 25. Villain in the BB calls. 6 to the flop. Pot ~150
Flop: Ad10h4h.

Checks around to Hero, who bets 90. Villain calls and everyone else folds. Pot ~330

Turn: 9h. Nice.

Villain checks. Hero bets 135. I already know this is a huge mistake in hindsight, I should have bet more. In retrospect I would have done something closer to 200-250. I wasn’t keeping track of the pot size (which is 10x more obvious when you type these out). Villain calls. Pot ~600

River: 4d. Board paired.

Villain checks, has ~450 behind and hero has him covered.
Hero ???

I legitimately considered all 3 options. Curious everyone's thoughts. Will reveal answer later.

Small value bet ~250: Target his smaller flushes. We may face a sick re-raise which sucks. This was a 6way pot, not crazy for someone to have a boat or nut flush- is villain capable of checking back a nutted hand?

Check back: Perhaps value is too thin here despite a pretty strong hand? How often do we get paid vs. lose more (and likely to a sick re-raise we are forced to call?)

Put him all in (~3/4 pot bet): Easiest way to interpret his check-back is that he’s behind us, he knows I’m loose, put him in a tough spot and force him into calling with a marginal hand or weak flush (get his ace hands to call?)
Thin value?? Checked back to on the river with 2nd nut flush on paired board Quote
03-28-2018 , 04:46 PM
If you've showed two bluffs, he's definitely paying attention, if he's a young thinking pro-looking player.

I don't think I'm ever checking this back. I'm probably shipping it in and putting him in a difficult position. You have a loose image and he's going to be calling you lighter than he normally does.

You don't have to really keep track of the exact amount in the pot, but a close ballpark figure is good to keep in mind, especially once you flop something good.

I don't think small turn bet is that bad if you think he might call you down with an Ace or raise with Ah, but I probably bet closer to 225-250, with a plan to ship it in on most rivers.
Thin value?? Checked back to on the river with 2nd nut flush on paired board Quote
03-28-2018 , 05:05 PM
This is not thin
Thin value?? Checked back to on the river with 2nd nut flush on paired board Quote
03-28-2018 , 05:27 PM
I think this is an easy shove if he has ~400 or less behind, and a check if he has 700+ (I'm confused as to how he started with 1000 and after putting in 25,90,135 now has 450). I think it's borderline with 450 behind.

I don't think 135 is a mistake.

I also think you only lose to Axh. AA would have re-raised pre and the other sets should not pay so passively on the flop and turn, given the board texture, so I do not envision running into boats most of the time. At 400 or less, he is probably committed with most his Ax combos that you can get value from. If he is deeper, I think your value bets should only be 1/4 pot-ish & you'd probably need to fold to a raise, depending on how much it is.
Thin value?? Checked back to on the river with 2nd nut flush on paired board Quote
03-28-2018 , 06:29 PM
Slightly bigger OTT; now shove river.
Thin value?? Checked back to on the river with 2nd nut flush on paired board Quote
03-28-2018 , 07:42 PM
Don't really consider this a thin value spot...I think having AT or A9 would be considered thin value, and you could bet fold the river.

AP, i think betting small (1/4-1/3 pot depending on player type/stickiness) is the best way to go, targeting his Ax holdings.

Flush over flush cooler is pretty rare, and not really afraid of sets filling up b/c they would have raised f,t.
Thin value?? Checked back to on the river with 2nd nut flush on paired board Quote
03-28-2018 , 10:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matzah_ball
This is not thin
To everyone saying it is not thin, I would agree if this were heads up or even a small multi-way. But isn't the fact that this is 6-handed change a lot in terms of what our villains show up with?

Given the 6-handed nature and assuming everyone is playing somewhat solid (given the high # of regs at the table), wouldn't any villain's 2 street calling range be pretty strong? That's what I thought at least.

Curious what people have to say about the 6-handed dynamic.
Thin value?? Checked back to on the river with 2nd nut flush on paired board Quote
03-28-2018 , 10:53 PM
^^^
1. You aren't deep enough to worry about any of this stuff.

2. If V had a set, then you would have gotten the old C/R on this soaking wet flop.
Thin value?? Checked back to on the river with 2nd nut flush on paired board Quote
03-29-2018 , 09:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matzah_ball
This is not thin
This. V has less than a PSB left and if he is paying attention and has you beaten (with NF or boat), then he should be leading. I go for max and shove here and if V has me beat well then he played it awful and got lucky that I had a monster.
Thin value?? Checked back to on the river with 2nd nut flush on paired board Quote
03-29-2018 , 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishsoup
To everyone saying it is not thin, I would agree if this were heads up or even a small multi-way. But isn't the fact that this is 6-handed change a lot in terms of what our villains show up with?

Given the 6-handed nature and assuming everyone is playing somewhat solid (given the high # of regs at the table), wouldn't any villain's 2 street calling range be pretty strong? That's what I thought at least.

Curious what people have to say about the 6-handed dynamic.
This would only apply if we were still multi-way OTR. Once we are HU (flop), then the fact that 6 players called the PFR is irrelevant. Plus you aren't ever folding (at least I hope you aren't) so target max value. This is not a $ saving spot if he has you beat...that is MUBSY.
Thin value?? Checked back to on the river with 2nd nut flush on paired board Quote

      
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