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Old 10-27-2016, 07:53 AM   #101
Ragequit99
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

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Originally Posted by Dizzyqtp View Post
broke my #1 rule today and tried to bluff a MAWG off AA. At least it only cost me $1,000
Unlucky but good advertising for next time you hit 2pair+

Last time I tried this I flatted 99 IP to set mine vs a tight UTG player's 6X open, flopped an open ender on 876, raised his flop cbet and then chickened out when I bricked the turn. It kind of worked as a one street semibliff in that V checked turn and river to me so I got to see two streets for the cost of my flop 2.5X raise. He had KK. I doubt he'd have folded to a triple barrel without an A coming but will never know as I don't have the heart to try a three street bluff very often.

I feel that having a stab at raising weak tight guys isn't a big mistake as they can fold AK and smaller over pairs, maybe even QQ sometimes but once they call a raise barreling is usually a big error as they have decided not to give up their overpair or over pair+draw.
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Old 10-27-2016, 08:04 AM   #102
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

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OK this isn't my bluff, it's a funny one from a LAGtard on tilt but he's hero for ease of understanding.

So this LAG is currently down £1000 in this 9 handed 1/2 game which is curgently revolving around him and his dodgy plays/misfortune. He is sat opposite me. I have the best player at the table to my direct left. V is a tough, adaptable TAG/LAG capable of bluffing, slow playing, thin value betting, floating etc... if it's possible and +EV this V can and will do it at the right time vs the right player with the right hand.

Our LAGtard hero busts out for another £200 and leaves the table, i thought forever. I move to his former seat to escape the tough reg on my left. Shortly Hero returns and remonstrates with dealer that he said he wanted to keep his seat, I offer to switch seats back but hero graciously declines and sits in my old seat but asks for a table change. Immediately hero is dealt in and this happens...


OTTH:

Hero in CO has £400 is dealt 72o. Tough reg V on BTN has him covered.

Folds to MP who limps, folds to hero who raises to £10 in CO, V on BTN thinks then 3bets to £30, MP folds.

Hero quickly 4bets to £100. V tanks for a minute then calls.

Flop 633r, headsup, pot £200, stacks £300: Hero checks. V thinks briefly then bets £100. Hero quickly shoves for £300....
So, as you probably guessed, the good reg V instacalls the flop allin. Board runs out 663 4 5r.

Hero LAGtard leaps to his feet while apologising profusely to V and tables his runner-runner straight with 72o.

V shows AA and smiles. He doesn't grumble at all, accepts the table laughter at his misfortune and then takes a short break before topping up and carrying on.

I'd have been steaming if I'd been in his shoes so kudos to him for his self control.

The LAGtard lost his £800 over the next 30mins and left.
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Old 10-27-2016, 01:27 PM   #103
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

V is a good, tight reg. Think he's playing at least to supplement his income, if not for most of it. Views H as an OK player, but probably both a bit spewy and a bit of a luckbox (as this hand will demonstrate he's probably right).

Game is 1/2 but effective stacks are about $700.

EP raiser to $20 and 1 caller. H calls with 43s in HJ. V raises to $55. Initial raiser folds, H calls.

Clearly fold pre twice, but I'm told that H may have had a beer or three already and was looking to play some hands.

Flop ($150) - 5d4d2s. H checks. V bets $100. H shoves about $600 more. V hems, haws then folds.

Why it's a good bluff - V is capped at an overpair here, he's never 3-betting 55, 44, 22, A3 or 63. H can have any set. H has 13 outs twice against an overpair other than AA. V has no desire to put $600 into a pot where I'm uncapped and he's capped.

Why it's a bad bluff - Not sure I see any reason this is a bad bluff. Maybe I'm just ahead v. AK and it's not a bluff at all. Obviously pre was still terrible...
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Old 10-27-2016, 05:52 PM   #104
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

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Originally Posted by MIB211 View Post
V is a good, tight reg. Think he's playing at least to supplement his income, if not for most of it. Views H as an OK player, but probably both a bit spewy and a bit of a luckbox (as this hand will demonstrate he's probably right).

Game is 1/2 but effective stacks are about $700.

EP raiser to $20 and 1 caller. H calls with 43s in HJ. V raises to $55. Initial raiser folds, H calls.

Clearly fold pre twice, but I'm told that H may have had a beer or three already and was looking to play some hands.

Flop ($150) - 5d4d2s. H checks. V bets $100. H shoves about $600 more. V hems, haws then folds.

Why it's a good bluff - V is capped at an overpair here, he's never 3-betting 55, 44, 22, A3 or 63. H can have any set. H has 13 outs twice against an overpair other than AA. V has no desire to put $600 into a pot where I'm uncapped and he's capped.

Why it's a bad bluff - Not sure I see any reason this is a bad bluff. Maybe I'm just ahead v. AK and it's not a bluff at all. Obviously pre was still terrible...
definitely can relate to this. and i believe at least in this thread we should have protection from 'fold pre' responses. yeah, we know.
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Old 10-27-2016, 05:56 PM   #105
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

Pre is awful for sure.

Are you really value shoving a set on that flop? Is V really folding KK on that flop? I doubt he's folding AA. Not sure but I don't really love it.
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Old 10-27-2016, 06:06 PM   #106
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

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Pre is awful for sure.

Are you really value shoving a set on that flop? Is V really folding KK on that flop? I doubt he's folding AA. Not sure but I don't really love it.
I can overbet shove flops with nutted hands, though not sure V knows that. See thread below for a similar example where I did have it, though different Vs so I'm not sure the balance here matters.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...89/?highlight=

Let's assume he's 3-betting something like JJ+/AQ/AK. I definitely get him to fold his equity with AK and AQ (other than AdKd AdQd), and those hands have 9 outs. Against a range of JJ-AA, AdKd and AdQd, I have almost 45% equity. So, even if he calls with that whole range, I'm putting $600 in for 45% of $1350, so still slightly ahead. [Note I screwed up the initial explanation, and H was shoving a bit more than $600 total over his $100 bet, not $600 more.]

I'm pretty sure that shoving here is +EV. Now, harder to prove that it's more +EV than just calling and trying to bind v. his overpairs and coax another bet out of his AK and AQ. With position I'd lean more towards calling, OOP I generally like ending the hand on the flop.

Then, the question is what he does with his overpairs, and how often does he fold them. I think I get a significant number of folds. V has been grinding for several hours and is not the kind of guy who wants to get in huge money in a flip. He also must think that sometimes I show up with a set here and he's crushed. A hard spot for him call with KK and hope to be flipping for $1350.

Last edited by MIB211; 10-27-2016 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 10-27-2016, 06:18 PM   #107
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

$5/10

UTG weakish passive limp, +1 LAG $50, hero call BTN KQ 3k eff HU

Flop $125: J92. Check to hero $75 he calls. Turn $275: 4. Checks to Hero $225, he makes it $775. Hero folds

Why is it a good bluff? Blockers and what I thought was a capped range of lag after checking flop with a weak player involved int he hand.

Why didnt it work? Bad timing, I guess he was c/c flop with Axdd or maybe he just owned me.

Why is it a bad bluff? I wouldnt say its a bad bluff, but I guess I could just check back flop... I would 3bet pre if UTG hadnt limp but I think keeping him in the hand is more +ev then 3betting.
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Old 10-27-2016, 06:19 PM   #108
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

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Originally Posted by br3nt00 View Post
definitely can relate to this. and i believe at least in this thread we should have protection from 'fold pre' responses. yeah, we know.


+infinity


This thread doesn't exist if we always fold pre. It's obv many of the hands should have that response, no need saying it over and over again
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Old 10-27-2016, 06:25 PM   #109
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

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+infinity


This thread doesn't exist if we always fold pre. It's obv many of the hands should have that response, no need saying it over and over again
Agreed, this should be a safe space where we can all revel in our spewage.
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Old 10-27-2016, 08:10 PM   #110
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

2/5

I've been pretty active and talkative (both unusual as normally I'm a quiet nit)

Btn is an okay but tightish tag MAWG

4 limps (including btn) to hero who checks his option with 78

Flop ($25) QK4

All check. As dealer is burning hero says "6 of spades!"

Dealer turns....the 5

Hero says "that's close enough" and leads $25. All fold to btn who thinks 10 secs and calls.

Again hero says "6 of spades!" (People that do this are so tilting)

River ($75)...7

Hero thinks for a second and bets $150

Why this bluff is good: when btn checks flop and calls turn, I think he's most often capped at Qx. Perhaps sometimes he has a random 55/54 and he hates value, but at the time I thought 100% Qx. Some draw combos maybe, like 67/JT/spades

Also, I'm tired of being hero'd / stationed. There is a big elastic difference between pot and 2x pot I've noticed. Like the difference from 80% pot to 100% pot is a calling frequency +/- a few % points. But from pot to 200% pot is much larger (which of course it needs to be to be profitable)

I also want to talk about the $ here. Bc at first you see $75 to be won and it's like "um ok, sick bluff bro" But just a few of these a night will substantially add to your wr (as well as help balance your over bet value range)

Why this bluff is bad: I have literally told villain I am on a draw. I rep very little, and I have been talkative and active (recipe for getting hero'd). I also have showdown value, as many draws missed (spades, JT, and I beat 67) as this villain plays more on the ABC tighter side, he will often let me realize my sdv.

Also, while I'd contend it's very important to win small pots no one is interested in (folks don't do this enough!), caution should be exercised in limped pots.
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Old 10-28-2016, 01:33 AM   #111
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

2/5

Tag image, $1300 eff

Folds to me otb w/79 I go $15, villain in bb 3b to $60, I call

(He doesn't seem particularly good or bad. Just meh abc guy that isn't a total station)

Flop 662 I call $65

Turn 5 he bets $105 I raise to $325 he tank folds

TBH if he called I was prepared to ship river if I whiffed

But thankfully it didn't come to that
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Old 10-28-2016, 05:41 AM   #112
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

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Originally Posted by MIB211 View Post
V is a good, tight reg.

Game is 1/2 but effective stacks are about $700.

EP raiser to $20 and 1 caller. H calls with 43s in HJ. V raises to $55. Initial raiser folds, H calls.


Flop ($150) - 5d4d2s. H checks. V bets $100. H shoves about $600 more. V hems, haws then folds.
This is a good bluff IMO. V has 3bet very small over a 20 open and 2 callers. He's good so he realises when opener folds and overcaller hero flats that he's messed up preflop by giving good odds to set mine. He should then be thinking about avoiding compounding that error by giving good implied odds postflop. That's the perfect spot to get an overpair to fold IMO.
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Old 10-28-2016, 01:31 PM   #113
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

V is a huge fish, has donked turn cards and shown down weak top/middle pair type hands previously multiple times in the session.

Effective stacks $840

V limps in CO, Hero raises to $20 OTB with 76, BB calls and V calls.

Pot: $58 (after rake)
Flop: AJ2

BB and V check, Hero bets $45, BB folds and V calls.

Pot: $148
Turn: T

V bets $100, Hero raises to $300, V calls.

Pot: $748

River: 5

V checks, Hero shoves for $485, V folds.
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Old 10-28-2016, 04:45 PM   #114
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

Love this thread idea.

2/5 about 650 eff. One limper, I raise K Q to 30 in CO, competent, low VPIP, possible-reg button calls, BB calls, rest fold.

Flop is J98, one diamond. BB checks, I check, and button bets $40. BB folds, I call.

Turn is 6d, I check, button bets $130, I tank call (expecting very low FE here).

River is Qr, I bet $245 in 10 sec, V tank folds.
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Old 10-28-2016, 04:57 PM   #115
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

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Love this thread idea.

2/5 about 650 eff. One limper, I raise K Q to 30 in CO, competent, low VPIP, possible-reg button calls, BB calls, rest fold.

Flop is J98, one diamond. BB checks, I check, and button bets $40. BB folds, I call.

Turn is 6d, I check, button bets $130, I tank call (expecting very low FE here).

River is Qr, I bet $245 in 10 sec, V tank folds.
Not sure this is a bluff at all. Do you think V folded two pair? He clearly doesn't have AQ, and I doubt he folded a set.
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Old 10-28-2016, 05:15 PM   #116
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

Looks like a bluff to me. Why wouldn't villain fold a set there?
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Old 10-29-2016, 06:23 PM   #117
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

3/5 I have about $900 and V has me covered. Both villains here are extremely loose aggressive and regularly bluff for large amounts pre and post flop. I have been largely folding for a while except for the occasional raise. I have taken down a number of small pots with c bets on good textured flops and recently showed the flopped nuts when I led into V1. My image is pretty tight at this point.

In MP with A8ss. Folded to me. I make it 25. V1 flats To my left. (this is literally any two cards. He hates to fold to raises pre). V raises to 75 on the button. I flat as does the button. Flop is 10QQ rainbow. Checks to V who bets $125. I check raise to $350. While I really was only representing two hands-a queen and tens full the bet sizing seemed really weak and I thought my image could represent either of those two pretty credibly. Both fold.
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Old 10-30-2016, 01:56 AM   #118
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

1/2

Hero has nit image. Been sitting at table 45-60min. Table has been playing loose and agro. Hero has folded or limp-folded except for one hand in which hero raised to 35 CO w/QQ and got two callers. Stacked off (SPR was ~1 playing short stack) on a JJ8 flop to be beat by J9. Otth:

2 limpers. Hero raises 76ss to 15 in CO. BTN calls, limpers call. Pot: 60.

Flop: AsTs8x

Checks thru.

Turn: 6x

Retiree bets 40, loose agro Indian guy to his direct left calls, hero hesitates and then says all-in (for 117). Folds all around.
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Old 10-30-2016, 04:10 PM   #119
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

2/5 MS

V is from out of town, appears to understand the game well in his table talk. Knows hero is a reg but hero hasn't played many hands with him so far. He plays a super wide range pre, limping hands like J6d and similar bad but suited hands. However he has played very snug post flop. About an hour earlier we played a limped pot and I led $20 on a J56hhh board, he raised to $60 and got cold called by someone in late position while I folded. On a blank turn he check folded to the cold caller's $70 bet and showed 107hh. Stated that he knew the other guy had a flush.

OTTH:
I straddle button to $10, V calls from BB there are two limps and I check As2d. Flop J54sss. Checks to me on the button and I bet $20, V calls others fold. Turn is Qx he checks I bet $50 he calls. River is Kx and V leads $150. I raise $550 and he open mucks K7ss.

Why this bluff is good: V has proven that he is able to make big laydowns, he has a lot of small flushes in his range, and I can credibly rep the nuts.

Why this bluff is bad: Generally Vs do not lay down flushes and I'm repping pretty much only the nuts with this raise.
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Old 10-31-2016, 10:58 AM   #120
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

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Originally Posted by psujohn View Post
Pre is awful for sure.

Are you really value shoving a set on that flop? Is V really folding KK on that flop? I doubt he's folding AA. Not sure but I don't really love it.
I had a similar question: does shoving $600 really have any more fold equity than raising to $350?

Raising to $350 obviously commits you to the pot. Villain knows if he calls the additional $250, he'll be calling a turn shove. And I think it *looks* a bit more like a set or a flopped straight.

I think there might be a little more fold equity to a non-shove raise here, at least against a thinking player.

Otherwise, good bluff.
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Old 10-31-2016, 11:15 AM   #121
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

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I had a similar question: does shoving $600 really have any more fold equity than raising to $350?

Raising to $350 obviously commits you to the pot. Villain knows if he calls the additional $250, he'll be calling a turn shove. And I think it *looks* a bit more like a set or a flopped straight.

I think there might be a little more fold equity to a non-shove raise here, at least against a thinking player.

Otherwise, good bluff.
Fair enough on sizing. On a complete air bluff where I fold to a jam I like the smaller sizing better. Here I'm obviously committed given my hand so it's closer. Against some V's who like to level I like the smaller sizing a bit better, but that's not my read on this V. That said smaller could be better.
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Old 10-31-2016, 11:58 AM   #122
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

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Originally Posted by EdNealy View Post
1/2

Hero has nit image. Been sitting at table 45-60min. Table has been playing loose and agro. Hero has folded or limp-folded except for one hand in which hero raised to 35 CO w/QQ and got two callers. Stacked off (SPR was ~1 playing short stack) on a JJ8 flop to be beat by J9. Otth:

2 limpers. Hero raises 76ss to 15 in CO. BTN calls, limpers call. Pot: 60.

Flop: AsTs8x

Checks thru.

Turn: 6x

Retiree bets 40, loose agro Indian guy to his direct left calls, hero hesitates and then says all-in (for 117). Folds all around.
Overlimp preflop (our stack is way too short and table is way too loose to be getting out-of-line here).

Could bet the flop (have great equity with flush draw + gutshot, if no one has an Ace we could take this down, a bet will typically buy a free card on the turn).

With $140 in the pot, I highly doubt a << PSB shove with a FOS line is going to fold a bettor into the world plus a call (although here it did, so hurray for results).

Gkindahatethewholehand,tbhG
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Old 10-31-2016, 12:12 PM   #123
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

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Overlimp preflop (our stack is way too short and table is way too loose to be getting out-of-line here).

Could bet the flop (have great equity with flush draw + gutshot, if no one has an Ace we could take this down, a bet will typically buy a free card on the turn).

With $140 in the pot, I highly doubt a << PSB shove with a FOS line is going to fold a bettor into the world plus a call (although here it did, so hurray for results).

Gkindahatethewholehand,tbhG
Yes, I'm shocked the loose Indian guy folded. Initial raiser could be bluffing, but caller is never bluffing, he has a made hand or a draw, and only needs to put 77 more to win like 340
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Old 10-31-2016, 12:35 PM   #124
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

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Originally Posted by MIB211 View Post
Yes, I'm shocked the loose Indian guy folded. Initial raiser could be bluffing, but caller is never bluffing, he has a made hand or a draw, and only needs to put 77 more to win like 340
Also very unlikely bettor (a retiree) is bluffing into the world.

GcluelessbluffingnoobG
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Old 10-31-2016, 01:56 PM   #125
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Re: Tell me about your bluff today

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIB211
Yes, I'm shocked the loose Indian guy folded. Initial raiser could be bluffing, but caller is never bluffing, he has a made hand or a draw, and only needs to put 77 more to win like 340
140+117=257 77 more to win 257, no? I think this prices out FD's w/o extra outs. Btw, I left out some probably key info. All three villains had deep stacks: retiree ~400, Indian guy ~700, eastern European guy to my left OTB ~800.
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