Ok this a hand from a couple of nights ago. Game is 1/1 effective stacks are 380bb

Hero: probably seen as a straight forward abc nit by villain. I've been by far and away the tightest player at the table and I'm sure villain has noticed this.

Villian: ultra laggy Asian. He is a reg and I recognize him but this is the first time Webe played at the same table. Since he sat down he has gotten into some huge hands with his buddy where they both have showed up with marginal hands on several occasions. They are laughing and both like to gamble with each other when they get hu. His buddy is pretty bad/speewy lag I've won a couple of fairly large pots against him in previous sessions and seen him make some truely fundamental mistakes. It seems his friend (villian) is a little better but it's hard to tell maybe he's just having a little run good as its not got to show down with him very often although all hands that have got to showdown he's had it. (Against everyone but his buddy)

Villain: raises from early position to 8

Hero: AA raises 25 mp villan tank (well kinda tanks sort of looks like he thinks he should fold but just really wants to play it, it's just a few seconds but you know the kind of reaction I mean. its a little wierd and I don't know if he realizes he has good odds to set mine.) it really was tough to gage what he knows.

Anyhow after the tank and the seeming brief pain he went through to call it seems to me he could often have a big ace (less likely given my hand) or any pp or slightly less likely also hand like KQs/KJs (if it was a truely random hand it less likely he would um and arr IMO before calling he doesn't strike me as a "fake tell" kind of dude)

Flop K 8 4 r

Villian checks

Hero checks: my reason for checking here is I think villain puts me on a very tight range which hits the king hard and I don't want him to fold. Is this inline with what you guys would be thinking here ? I really feel sets and AK would lead right into with this guy. Also I want to appear as though the king may have scared me

Turn is a duece still rainbow. Board is K 8 4 2

Villain checks

Hero bets 40 villan calls pot is 130

River is another seemingly inconsequential card a 9 I think

Villain checks again.

Hero bets 55 this is the bet im not altogether happy with. Is this bet too small ? I'm trying to get called by Kx or pp.

To a lesser extent i was slightly worried i might be opening myself up to a river c/r bluff from such a laggy guy could this kinda bet induce from a thinking lag. It tied up in knots a little I'm not sure I got maximum value and may have been too concerned with protecting my stack.

Views ? Did i miss a tonne of value ?? (he called as though he didn't like it but had to btw)

Wow checking the flop is really, really bad. Yes, you are missing a ton of value.

This is an easy Bet/Bet/Bet....You're sizing on each street should look something like 75% of pot or bigger

OP- explain how checking this flop makes you more money long term?


You have to have a reason, against a spazzy guy like this who likes to outthink himself there is no reason to check

Ok. Well perhaps my thinking is compleatly flawed here.

From the villains perspective I probably have an extremely tight range AK QQ+ if I was the villain (who could be a good lag. It's his friend who made the fundamental mistakes.) I would prolly lead there with AK or a set and I feel like he's folding to a flop bet alot against me here. My thinking was he usually shows up with 22-QQ and I'm not sure how much of that range calls me OTF here. I think even a hand like KQ is gonna fold to 2 barrels if I bet flop and turn. So I was hoping a flop check would widen my range some and make him believe its possible I 3 bet a smaller pp. than what I'm representing. Also I would like to protect my stack some and I don't really want to be getting it in with top pair this deep. If he was >150bb perhaps i would take a bet bet bet line. Under a 100bb for sure I would

Perhaps I'm all screwed up on this but I'm very aware hands like suited connectors go up in value as we get deeper and big pp's value diminishes. Thoughts ?

Ok more silly thoughts from me.

If this guy has leaks in his game it's from him betting too often against perceived weakness or running a bad c/r but once he check raises in this situation he almost always has to shut down and coupled with that he is very rarely making those kinds of moves when I've shown such strength and he is oop. He is not a station is what I'm trying to say and I have yet to see him call call call against such blatant aggression.

Pretend for a movement this is a 1/2 and you $780 deep are you planning to barrel your whole stack against a dude with his tendencies ? What if he shows resistance ? Do we just ignor it and get it in presuming he never has a hand ?

If a villain this deep was gonna bet 75%+ against me on every street and I knew this. And i also knew how tight his range was. That's 40ish OTF around 90ish ott and 250ish otr leaving himself committed and I had flopped a set then he is gonna be in hella trouble. And this is precisely the wonderful kind of situations I pray for

your leveling yourself some if you think a bad player is even thinking on the second level and assigning you a range.

Ok here are some thoughts.

I guess the question here is how often does this guy spazz when I bet the flop after 3 betting his 8bb raise to 25bb.

If I do induce a spazz from a flop bet how often am I correct in my assessment that it is indeed a spazz and how often do I commit when I'm behind.

If I bet the flop not only how often is he calling with worse ? which is obviously a valid question. but how often is he gonna take further heat on later streets with one pairish type hands without top kicker (given that i have 2 aces AK is much more unlkely now) given the action thus far ? And how likely is he to spazz at this juncture and how likely am I gonna be able to read those kinds of moves as what they are a spazz ?

If I check the flop am I gonna widen his is calling range ? And is it gonna increase the likely hood of getting more value on more streets ?

Given all the variables, the villians laggyness. The fact we are so deep. His perception of my range. My suspicion he could be thinking lag. The fact I haven't seen him call down light very often certainly not in the face of a large 3bet pot deep and oop. Given my reads and the kinds of hands i put him on does a king help him or scare him more often than not ? Those were my reasonings for checking back the flop.

Am I crazy or is any of that valid ???

I'm not necessarily saying he's bad.

He's young he's Asian he's messing about with his buddy. He's taking stabs at pots which from my perspective look like questionable moves. He's young he's Asian he dresses nice, he looks kinda studious. He handles chips well and It's hard to tell how deeply he thinks. His friend is bad but I'm not sure if there of the same ilk. He is not a station !!

He might be bad but hes defiantly not bad in in a passive calling type of way.

You say that and you can put down low stake players but IME when someone opens big and they get 3 bet big even the most basic of people are gonna start to think about what you have. And when you start to get deeper and the bets get very large (not relative to the pot but in terms of actual money) people start wondering what you have. I'd agree there are old dudes that bet way to big in ep with medium pairs hoping "everyone folds cus they hate jacks" but this guy is far removed from them.

[QUOTE=fogodchao;38058788]your leveling yourself some if you think a bad player is even thinking on the second level and assigning you a range.[/

I'd disagree about the levels most people think on in these games now. In a book I read by David skylanski I remember a chapter on multi level thinking. And he described people on the zeroth level just thinking about there cards. But I think these people just exist in Facebook poker these days. You here people saying oh I put you on this or that, granted its usually just one hand and often times it makes no sense but I think im forced to show the nature of my hand here p/f and what ive done screams big pocket pair/AK you'd have to be nutso to not see a king could be great for my hand !! I think running through his mind when he checks "is oh **** I'm deep I've just called a huge raise there's a king this not a good time to get cute !! lets try to get to showdown with my marginal hand" and when it gets to scary he's gonna let it go. Then I check the flop he is relieved thinks I don't have a king beaten and is liable to call down

Checking flop and then leading brick turn and still getting called? This means he's probably gonna call the flop.

He can easily have KQ, KJ, KT, any pp here.

3/4 pot
3/4 pot
shove