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Old 02-07-2019, 04:12 PM   #1
DumbosTrunk
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Suited hot garbage on the BTN

Hi all,

1/3. Hero has been playing just under an hour. First hand raised black AA in BB over five limpers and only BTN called. GII by turn on 9x-93T runout and he called with bottom boat (33). Rebought.

This hand EP (strikes me as scared money/new grinder type) makes it $15, MP (MAWG unknown, presumably rec) cuts out raising chips but decides to just call, hero sees potential opportunity with a speculative/implied odds (fancy speak for trash) hand OTB (96) and makes the call with $200 effective. Both Vs cover.

Oh, forgot to mention that after hero calls 6s is exposed preflop.

Flop ($42): 952. Pfr bets $40, MP calls, hero? Results and a follow-up question after I get enough feedback.

Thanks,
DT

Last edited by DumbosTrunk; 02-07-2019 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 02-07-2019, 04:17 PM   #2
twitcherroo
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Re: Suited hot garbage on the BTN

Would prefer to be deeper to make the call, but whatever. I’ll call super wide OTB. I do think this is a -EV move though. Flop is a shove. You should have FE against scared money and really don’t mind at all getting looked up or folded to. Shove AINEC. You’re a slight favorite against an overpair without a club.
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Old 02-07-2019, 04:36 PM   #3
gobbledygeek
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Re: Suited hot garbage on the BTN

I think the preflop call is a massive leak, but you already know that. Getting in large 7.5% of stacks just 66bbs deep with a crap hand (even in position) is spew, imo.

With $122 in the pot and just $185, I'm jamming. If we were much much deeper there would be more argument for just flatting (we have TP showdownable hand, we're not really looking to blow 88/etc. out of the pot, UI we're fine with attempting to get to showdown, etc.). But with so much money in the pot relative to stacks at this point (which suggests a big preflop error as it is just so rare that we'll flop this good, imo) this shove is mostly just for small value + a little bit of FE.

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Old 02-07-2019, 05:43 PM   #4
WereBeer
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Re: Suited hot garbage on the BTN

Call pre is bad.

As played I ship now, our equity drops horribly if turn bricks and it's not like we're drawing to the nuts.

EDIT

We should be ahead right now against a nitty open raise and a call. Our equity isn't even that bad if we get called.

Last edited by WereBeer; 02-07-2019 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 02-07-2019, 05:48 PM   #5
Javanewt
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Re: Suited hot garbage on the BTN

Call pre is speculative (bad) this shallow. You got almost as good as you could, so shove.
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Old 02-07-2019, 05:51 PM   #6
QuantumSurfer
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Re: Suited hot garbage on the BTN

Pre is probably loosing being only 66bb deep. If we estimate we need about 35:1 to BE, we gotta make $525 when we hit & hold to make up for the 5bb investment. As played, we really can't fold this flop. I really don't like going overboard with TP+FD, but being this shallow, I lean shove. If we call, we're going to have just a bit over a PSB left anyways.
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Old 02-07-2019, 06:20 PM   #7
BackDoorFlush
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Re: Suited hot garbage on the BTN

Fold pre; now jam.
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Old 02-07-2019, 06:31 PM   #8
Sigh I Call
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Re: Suited hot garbage on the BTN

fold pre

AP,
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Old 02-07-2019, 06:32 PM   #9
DumbosTrunk
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Re: Suited hot garbage on the BTN

OK pretty solid consensus that the call pre was bad this shallow and the flop is a jam. So hero jammed, pfr pretty quickly folded (later claimed had TT), then V2 - unknown MAWG rec - starts the following table talk during his tank:

"Is a 9 good?"

"You on a flush draw?"

"You won't answer my questions?"

"Let me at least get a smile out of you." Hero couldn't help himself and gave a small smile as the table chuckled.

Then V picked up calling chips and looked at hero for a reaction and as soon as hero looked at the calling chips made the call.

Board ran out bricks and V scooped with Qc9d.

Anything to be learned from the tank? Hero remained silent the entire time and for the most part looked at the board or up in the air, not at V. I'm not big into tells or live reads, maybe someone with more experience in this area can chime in. I don't think I gave anything away, but maybe I did unwittingly.
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Old 02-07-2019, 06:38 PM   #10
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Re: Suited hot garbage on the BTN

If I think the person knows what they're looking for when they ask these questions, I would always say "nope" when they ask if I'm on a flush draw. Usually these people that read some tells articles or Elwood's books are looking for specific things. Eliminating all FD's from your range in their mind makes you more value heavy. Of course this person could just be asking questions for the sake of hearing their own voice and you could just act agitated and call the clock because people that are bluffing tend to be much more friendly.

Or just stare at one card on the board completely still and silent until your eyes start hurting and call the clock.
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Old 02-07-2019, 06:51 PM   #11
gobbledygeek
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Re: Suited hot garbage on the BTN

I'm also give very little weight to live "tells" / etc. and my guess is that most of my opponents, who are losers at all other aspects of poker, are also losers in this aspect to.

Having said that, when I'm all-in I find it usually helps to do a manually robotic process over and over again with my hands to help me concentrate on something other than just blindly starting at something. So I'll look at and shuffle or stack and restack remaining chips / move my cards back and forth / etc. in some sort of repetitive manner that requires a little bit of concentration (and almost removes me from anything other than accomplishing this task). I also typically don't say anything, but I will be sure to lighten up the mood after the hand is over to keep a good vibe going at the table (maybe a lol "ha, sorry man, I don't say anything in the hand, you're too good at reading people!"). All in all, it's likely not necessary, but whatever gets you thru the moment.

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Old 02-07-2019, 10:30 PM   #12
monikrazy
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Re: Suited hot garbage on the BTN

Trivial jam, not close at all.
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Old 02-08-2019, 06:19 AM   #13
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Re: Suited hot garbage on the BTN

I don't generally engage with that sort of quizzing unless I have some specific impression I want to give. Usually it either doesn't matter what you do or it's unpredictable how they will react. One tell I use myself sometimes is that players are almost never hostile or arrogant when bluffing, so it can be useful to throw a bit of that in, in the unlikely event you think your opponent has any ability to interpret tells.
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Old 02-08-2019, 06:24 AM   #14
adios
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Re: Suited hot garbage on the BTN

Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
Trivial jam, not close at all.
Why would a V perceive a shove as being really strong here? Multi hand pot, H calls a raise OTB with no 3 bet. H's play of the hand on the flop strikes me as a variance play, close to 0EV with high variance. Ymmv on the psychological value of making this kind of play.

Last edited by adios; 02-08-2019 at 06:40 AM.
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Old 02-08-2019, 08:03 AM   #15
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Re: Suited hot garbage on the BTN

It's not that, it's that our equity is really good now and might not be so good OTT, we want to ensure we see the river.
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Old 02-08-2019, 12:44 PM   #16
gobbledygeek
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Re: Suited hot garbage on the BTN

Plus villain doesn't have to fold an overpair all that often to turn this ~50/50 case into a pretty decent advantage; getting better hands to fold just a mere 10% of the time puts us in printing money territory.

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Old 02-08-2019, 04:28 PM   #17
adios
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Re: Suited hot garbage on the BTN

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Plus villain doesn't have to fold an overpair all that often to turn this ~50/50 case into a pretty decent advantage; getting better hands to fold just a mere 10% of the time puts us in printing money territory.

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Yes but the question is how do the V's in this hand perceive the strength of H's hand. Looks like one V put him on pretty much on the hand he had. Also he had to get two V's to fold to realize FE not one. Why does he have 50% equity on the flop against a bet from the PFR and a caller? Even though stacks are pretty shallow, I think putting in a small raise is a better play. If PFR shoves, decent chance middle V fold and H has a pretty easy call. I think it is more likely that it would get checked through on the turn if H doesn't improve.

Last edited by adios; 02-08-2019 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 02-08-2019, 04:47 PM   #18
gobbledygeek
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Re: Suited hot garbage on the BTN

With the pot already being $120 and us only having $185 behind, I'm shoving all my good made hands here too (sets, etc.), so I'm not nearly as worried about balance / range perception. If I get folds from overpairs 15% of the time when I have both sets and good draws, I still do pretty good overall.

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Old 02-08-2019, 08:01 PM   #19
WereBeer
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Re: Suited hot garbage on the BTN

It's fine to shove here, our equity is great with the top pair covering us against all draws. Only becomes a problem much deeper. There's no reasonable range that makes this an unprofitable shove.
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Old 02-08-2019, 10:56 PM   #20
tmo1120
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Re: Suited hot garbage on the BTN

this is a unique spot where you are semi bluffing with tons of equity so I would probably engage in table talk here when he asks a question bc at the end of the day if he calls or folds it doesn't really matter that much , should be comfortable in this spot as well so I would just say something like , " I have a good hand " or " your kicker is no good"
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Old 02-09-2019, 02:17 AM   #21
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Re: Suited hot garbage on the BTN

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmo1120 View Post
this is a unique spot where you are semi bluffing with tons of equity so I would probably engage in table talk here when he asks a question bc at the end of the day if he calls or folds it doesn't really matter that much , should be comfortable in this spot as well so I would just say something like , " I have a good hand " or " your kicker is no good"
I like to respond “quads” when people ask me what I have. It’s an even better response when they ask me pre-flop.
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Old 02-09-2019, 01:42 PM   #22
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Re: Suited hot garbage on the BTN

at this stack depth it's much much much better to re-raise pre flop but it's just a little too shallow to call pre, with about 100BB i just never ever fold pre flop, it's a trivial jam as played imo

I never play this short, always topping off so I'm not too shallow to defend the button with 69s, also if you were 100BB deep to start the hand he probably folds the flop so definitely TOP UP!
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