So I am reading some poker books, including books by Daniel Negreanu and a lot of these books are in favor of raising with suited connectors. Daniel even advocates raising with suited connectors in early position.

I think poker has changed or maybe 1/2 and 1/3 NL is different than Daniel's high stakes games.

I find the idea of raising early position with suited connectors, though well disguised, is a losing strategy.

First you got to deal with the risk of a monster reraise. Anyone with cards, JJ-AA, A-K and A-Q will probably reraise. I think re-raises used to be smaller but these days I will routinely see re-raises of 35-40 dollar range, even with a 200 max buy in. I just can't call 20% of my stack with suited connectors.

Second, there is the reverse implied odds involved with these cards, better flushes, better straights, better two pairs. It's rare but still needs to be factored in the risk.

Even if you hit something big, like a flush, it's rare the villains will continue, without at least a flush draw or two pair of their own..which is rare. I think people have run into raised suited connectors so much, they won't always
call big bets even with an overpair.

there's some deceptive value, but players at this level rarely pay attention anyways. You might think next time you raise with Aces in early posiiton, you will get more callers, but I don't think a lot of players at this level really care.

Or maybe I'm just wrong?

For the most part, yes. Way overrated. Esp from EP

Yes, but I find them most overrated in multi-way limped pots. Your flopped flush, flush draw, or straight draw isn't worth as much in those spots and your draw is somewhat likely to be dominated.

Suited connectors are best used as a hand that is going to be making money from bluffing. In situations where bluffing is not profitable, you probably shouldn’t play suited connectors.

Of course like with anything in poker, this is not a maxim and there are exceptions


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Yes, which is why they are best played as raises from late position when you are first into the pot. You can often cbet and take it down on boards that favor your range, even if you actually whiffed.

They are not overrated. They are usually overplayed, especially EP. If you want to play them profitably, you have to play well post-flop.

Nobody is going to mention stack size?

Suited connectors are much more valuable with deep effective stacks than they are with shallow ones.

When 100bb-max-buy-in NLHE started showing up in cardrooms, I felt like playing in them was like fighting a boxing match in a 4-square-meter ring; there just wasn't enough room to maneuver.

Very good point. Deeper stack sizes, their value increases.

its all about IO when it comes to SC; i think they can be more useful in opening ranges in higher stakes game where you want to balance your opening range more, at low stakes you can play a straight forward exploitive strategy so very rarely open SC in ep,

Depends on who got the big stack. If it's a LAG player, sure. A tighter player probably won't pay off.

As others stated, they are overused.

Personally, I think it's because people like DNegs suggested it, but those following the advice neglected to read about what to do post flop if they get callers.

You most definitely better be able to play well post flop if youre going to raise these things, but I dont think they are over rated at all. At least not when it comes to raising them. Very few people do it so it cant really be over rated.

OK, so they're overrated. What other hands are you going to add to your EP raising range to keep it balanced? 22-66? Weak Ax suited? QJ? KJ?

If your EP raising range is 100% value, you're missing out on value. Also, you will be exploitable on draw-heavy flops like T87. So you need to have some hands in your range that connect with those kind of flops. If you can have T9 or 87, you can bluff and you avoid getting bluffed yourself.

Mat I can tell you’re a good player but probably past the stakes of 1/2 NL. Most 1/2 players are not good enough to manipulate. They will call with a 10, bluff you when they have a 9 and miss their straight.

I think somewhere in my garage, buried under some christmas decorations, is my old desktop with my hold'em manager database in it from 5 thru 50NL on full tilt. I'm not going to dust off it off and hope it boots just to answer this, but going off of memory, SC's were barely breakeven hands. You sort of had to play them, or else you would end up with a really nitty looking VPIP and get no action with your premium hands. They were certainly not profitable in EP, but the hope was that your AA/KK hands gained more profit than you lost with SC's.

Having this level of balance is really unnecessary at LLSNL. V's just aren't paying enough attention, and will continue paying you off and mis-ranging you. There is still some marginal profit to be made by playing these hands in late position. They can be played aggressively or passively, as the situation dictates.

I would much rather raise UTG with 22 than T9s. Sets just play so much easier than straight & flush draws, especially from OOP. My old database confirmed this as well. PP's, even small ones, were significant winning hands from all positions. SC's were much much worse. This is even more true in these live games where a lot of the value of SC's comes from fold equity, and the normal mistake our villains make is calling way too much.

The bolded, yes. Because it has blockers, has outs against just about anything, and makes the nuts when it hits a flush.

Being able to hit T87 flops better is a solution in search of a problem. A big chunk of our EP raising range is 77+, which hits that flop perfectly well. If you cbet AK on T87, people just fold when they have 33. They aren't like "oho he doesn't have suited connectors in his range, bet I can launch a bluff here". What restricts you from bluffing on T87 flops is the brute fact that it tends to hit your opponent's range pretty hard.

This is more or less /thread. Suited connectors are good hands to use when you want to balance a polarised range and want to have something that has some backup equity for your multi barrel bluffs on a lot of runouts. They're a lot worse in loose games, because they just don't win at showdown that often and they have a tendency to make second best hands. Not saying don't play them, but overrated, most definitely.

This is interesting, because it feels like more than a few posters here believe that little pairs are more trouble than they're worth, due to their rarely winning unimproved along with the risk of being oversetted.

And if you wait around for premium hands all day, you will get blinded to death and even dumb 1-2 players will put you on a big hand. Poker's a fun game isn't it?

These posters need to reevaluate.

I used to play SCs like mid and small PPs, but the big difference in my opinion is that SCs play horribly oop.

Being OOP is tougher just about always...but whats the difference between these two hands?

2/5 game

1) Raise $20 in EP with 44 and get 2 callers. Flop is K73
2) Raise $20 with 98s and get 2 callers. Flop is K73

Not much difference when you get a standard flop that you miss.

But what about this flop? KT7....Id rather have the draw than 44. I have 8 outs to a huge hand and 6 outs to a hand better than 44. 44 will win unimproved once in a while but not often enough to really make a difference.

My point is that if you dont look at the times we pound the flop by hitting a set with a pp or flopping 2 pair or trips with the suited connector, I'll take my chances with raising the suited connector over raising a small pp in EP. I have many ways to win the hand and / or good bluffing (semi bluff) opportunities with suited connectors and suited gappers.

Having said that, most people reading this should probably just fold suited connectors in EP.

Highly confident in my abilities to play postflop and I still fold small to mid SCs in EP on most tables. As far as 54s up to about 87s, I throw them in occasionally as LP 3b bluffs vs. late opens, otherwise I'm generally only flatting them on the BTN when deep, opening them without limpers, or folding them to a single raise. Rarely calling a raise with them otherwise and almost never overlimping/overcalling them unless the other players at the table are totally fit/fold mouth droolers that are easy to play postflop.

As far as EP opening ranges, I'll usually open 98s or T9s if the table isn't too loose pre. Otherwise I just tighten up my EP range a bit and stick with JTs+.

I think we've had some suited-connector threads in the past.

I'm mostly on board with the idea that that they're pretty meh speculative hands that are only playable from LP. But I also play in loose raisey non-deepish games (so all speculative hands go way down in value in these conditions).

GcluelessNLnoobG

In a 1/3 NL game, it will take you approximately 25 hours to blind out a 100bb BI at a 10 handed table. You have the time to wait for your spot.

And why would anyone fold to a preflop raise when they know you have AA and they have 97s and can crack you?

Do you need a raising range at all in EP? If you get 6 callers to your EP raise with AA (thanks to you recently showing a raise with suited connector), is that a good result?

Gthingstoconsider,imoG