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Old 08-05-2013, 01:12 PM   #1
passerby
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Suited Connectors OOP

I'm hoping I can get some forum advice for playing suited connectors (56s-910s...I auto-fold 23s & 34s) in early position (blinds, UTG, etc). I try to vary my play with these hands--but don't feel like I have a strong understanding of the best way to play them. I play both 2-5 and 1-3. I play a fair amount of 1-3 and sometimes play in games that involve a lot of limped multi-way pots.

Do you typically open with a raise with hands like this? Limp? Just fold?

In the 1-3 game I play in, most of the players have very narrow 3-betting ranges. It's not uncommon to see some of the players flat with hands like AQ or AK instead of 3-betting. Limp calling is common. The average player is 3-betting only premium hands: AA, KK, QQ, JJ, and maybe 1010, AKs, AKo and AQs. There are players that polarize their ranges in late position...but not nearly as many. Many are playing the very narrow range described above.

If I do open, and they 3-bet...is it better to flat trying to catch or to simply let go of the lower percentage hand. When would 4 betting a hand like this be the right play? Most people in the 1-3 game are 4 betting an even narrower range...AA and KK obviously...for some people not even QQ is included.

Is it better to limp and try to simply see a cheap multi-way flop? Or just quit playing these hands out of position altogether?

I know the answer to any poker Q is, "it depends." It depends on players, table images, the game itself, stack sizes, etc...but just hoping for some general advice. I put myself in a couple of tough situations lately with these types of hands. Hoping to plug a leak and improve my approach. Advice appreciated.
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Old 08-05-2013, 01:40 PM   #2
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Re: Suited Connectors OOP

The best way to plug this leak is to fold pre. SC's OOP are beyond profitability for most players.
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Old 08-05-2013, 02:27 PM   #3
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Re: Suited Connectors OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by spikeraw22 View Post
The best way to plug this leak is to fold pre. SC's OOP are beyond profitability for most players.
This.

Building on that, in a lot of llsnl games they are unprofitable for ALL players because there isn't enough fold equity to make them profitable.
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Old 08-05-2013, 02:31 PM   #4
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Re: Suited Connectors OOP

never limp, only play them lp unless you need more hands to balance out your ep/mp range

3! or 4! light with them only if you need a polarized 3!/4!
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Old 08-05-2013, 03:40 PM   #5
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Re: Suited Connectors OOP

Do the same thing with them preflop as you would do with the top of your range.
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Old 08-05-2013, 03:50 PM   #6
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Re: Suited Connectors OOP

The biggest & most common mistakes I see (imho) in small NL games is players playing these SC's with lousy stacks.

Lots of dummies (again imho) playing $100 stacks in a $1-3 game and playing sc's oop. Inevitably there's a PFR to 12-15 and now they are sending good money in after bad with a short stack.

I'll rarely if ever play sc's oop without raising (open raises), and/or having at least a 100bb stack, preferably 140bb + effective stacks.

Horribly, I see players with big stacks still call a pfr out of say the SB-BB with SC's but the PFR came from a 25-50 bb stack. I think this is total spewage.

I look at SC's and effective stacks of 20x the pfr as a minimum to be able to play oop. But I prefer 30x.
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Old 08-05-2013, 08:06 PM   #7
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Re: Suited Connectors OOP

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Originally Posted by bigfishead View Post
The biggest & most common mistakes I see (imho) in small NL games is players playing these SC's with lousy stacks.

Lots of dummies (again imho) playing $100 stacks in a $1-3 game and playing sc's oop. Inevitably there's a PFR to 12-15 and now they are sending good money in after bad with a short stack.

I'll rarely if ever play sc's oop without raising (open raises), and/or having at least a 100bb stack, preferably 140bb + effective stacks.

Horribly, I see players with big stacks still call a pfr out of say the SB-BB with SC's but the PFR came from a 25-50 bb stack. I think this is total spewage.

I look at SC's and effective stacks of 20x the pfr as a minimum to be able to play oop. But I prefer 30x.

this... and even deep and skilled good luck playing 108ss and 78ss etc from utg and utg+1 or 2 profitably over a large sample unless you are playing with deep ******s all the time
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Old 08-05-2013, 09:46 PM   #8
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Re: Suited Connectors OOP

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Originally Posted by spikeraw22 View Post
The best way to plug this leak is to fold pre. SC's OOP are beyond profitability for most players.
If you're playing in a game where you can be profitable playing SC oop, you're playing too low.

Other than in the weakest games (1/2, 1/3) against villains that believe that stacking off with TP when you have 150BB is a good idea, playing SC to hit and get paid off is generally a -EV idea. To get the extra juice necessary to play SC profitably, you need to be able to win hands without 2pr+. To do so, you generally need to have position.

Three betting SC light IP is quite profitable if done right. The problem is that most people go overboard with the idea and get looked up in LLSNL. There are way more SCs that there are legitimate 3 betting hands. You need to limit them. My preference is for 65s, 76s, and 87s. They're generally are far enough away from people's 3bet calling range that your outs aren't tied up post flop. If you hit big, it is hard for the calling range to get away. Finally, it is hard for a calling hand to continue on an ace or king flop oop.
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:42 PM   #9
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Re: Suited Connectors OOP

Helpful replies. Thank you.
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:49 PM   #10
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Re: Suited Connectors OOP

Quote:
If you're playing in a game where you can be profitable playing SC oop, you're playing too low.
One of my problems is that in my city there are pretty serious limitations when it comes to choice of game. You can almost always get a 1-3 game. Lots of days there will be a 2-5 game, but usually just one. And then typically it's mainly just a bunch of regs grinding. Then there's a 5-10 game a few times per week. It's a tough game. A couple of losing players...but mainly people that earned their way there by beating the lower levels.

Anyway--I digress. Thanks for the advice!
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Old 08-06-2013, 12:38 AM   #11
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Re: Suited Connectors OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by spikeraw22 View Post
The best way to plug this leak is to fold pre. SC's OOP are beyond profitability for most players.
this.....you should probably fold pretty much all SCs pre from OOP (including J10s, KJs, Q10s)......at least until you get really good at post flop but even then
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Old 08-06-2013, 01:10 AM   #12
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Re: Suited Connectors OOP

At 1/2 the best times to play them are in LP with several limpers in front. But you usually just take it down pf anyway, I think one guy in my last 40 hours of play limped in early hoping I'd raise in late.

If the guys limp-call you can bet them off A high flops, or if middle cards hit the board you usually out flop them. The important thing to keep in mind though is that if 3 guys with stacks under $100 (often the case at 1/2) limp there's no point.
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Old 08-06-2013, 04:14 AM   #13
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Re: Suited Connectors OOP

There are no fixed rule that says that you have to play SC in a particular way. It all depends on the dynamic.

As a general rule, whenever you play speculative hands, you always want to see the flop as cheaply as possible. To explain it mathematical, you want to have a large SPR.

Early position

1) When the table is passive n soft, limping in is ok if people are willing to get stack off with medium strength hands.

2) when table is passive preflop n tight post flop, open raising is better since u can take down pots post flop through cbeting.

3) if table is aggressive, u won't be able to play SC profitably in EP. Hence you have to fold SC

Late position

1)Always open raise

2) 3 bet bluff vs straight forward players

3) cold call vs fishes/ calling stations
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Old 08-06-2013, 04:21 AM   #14
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Re: Suited Connectors OOP

unless your casino has a big high hand jackpot and the table is going to consistently limp with you just fold them oop
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Old 08-06-2013, 05:04 AM   #15
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Re: Suited Connectors OOP

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Originally Posted by JHair View Post
unless your casino has a big high hand jackpot and the table is going to consistently limp with you just fold them oop
Folding them is alright but certainly not the highest EV play
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Old 08-06-2013, 05:44 AM   #16
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Re: Suited Connectors OOP

The farther you are from the button the bigger your folding range should be. You have no idea what the action is going to be like in the hand. History says it's a limpfest, until you limp of course and they see that you are limping.

Wait until you have position and raise almost everything. I raise 34 suited ... all the time in position.

If you're playing $1/$3, don't start getting into a 3! and 4! wars with people with SCs. You are going to wind up playing for stacks because the games generally aren't deep enough.
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Old 08-06-2013, 09:17 AM   #17
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Re: Suited Connectors OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by spikeraw22 View Post
The best way to plug this leak is to fold pre. SC's OOP are beyond profitability for most players.




THIS

And it goes for just about any position unless you get to limp late.
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