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Old 01-11-2018, 04:32 AM   #1
whs1919
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Suited Ace vs 2 villains

Hero and villains have been at the table for 2 hours, we started brand new table. This is the first hand that Hero has opened or played.

V1 seems decent aware of position preflop. He is not the type to get it in with top pair, but makes mistakes calling wide on the flop.

V2 is loose passive he is the table fish. Plays too many hands limp calling and raising to 10 no matter how many limpers. Has gotten stacks in with 34o when he called a late position open in the blinds and cracked AA's or Kings. Basically a luck box, the best to play against. Every hand the he shows down though is the nuts, and he gives up a lot.

Effective Stacks $300. 1/3 NL.

H A10 UTG makes it 12 to go. V1 cutoff calls, V2 BB calls.

Flop ($36) 7K2

H checks, V1 $20, V2 calls. Hero?
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Old 01-11-2018, 04:52 AM   #2
QuantumSurfer
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

Increase your sizing pre or fold. We know BB will call really wide and likely for much more than 4x.

I think the flop could be a c-bet. It's fairly dry and we have two runner - runner draws with an overcard. CO likely folds with anything worse than 7 and BB might call with worse. We can barrel hearts and face cards. Since we opted to check we have a really easy fold here.
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Old 01-11-2018, 05:42 AM   #3
NewClintEastwood
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

Yup. Standard profitable Cbet but after you check and have that action you can safely fold
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Old 01-11-2018, 11:05 AM   #4
Joey913
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

I'm all for more posts on mundane hands vs. the extreme crazy ones so that we can get better at optimizing typical situations, but how is this even a thread?

You made a very reasonable pre-flop raise and then opted not to c-bet on a dry board. Probably should have c-bet into just 2 opponents on this dry board but I wouldn't say not c-betting is awful or "lighting money on fire."

But when you choose not to cbet and one V bets over half pot and another V calls and you have squadoosh, you fold. And to boot, you're OOP.

My guess is you folded but would have backed into some gnarly flush, straight, or straight flush and you are just wanting validation that you were right to fold.

So here is that validation: folding the flop was correct.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:06 PM   #5
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

Hand was played fine, including no c-bet versus this fish.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:25 PM   #6
whs1919
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

If we cbet how much are we making it?

H call 20.

Turn ($96) Qh. H checks, V1 makes it 25, V2 calls. Hero?
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:28 PM   #7
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

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Originally Posted by Joey913 View Post
I'm all for more posts on mundane hands vs. the extreme crazy ones so that we can get better at optimizing typical situations, but how is this even a thread?

You made a very reasonable pre-flop raise and then opted not to c-bet on a dry board. Probably should have c-bet into just 2 opponents on this dry board but I wouldn't say not c-betting is awful or "lighting money on fire."

But when you choose not to cbet and one V bets over half pot and another V calls and you have squadoosh, you fold. And to boot, you're OOP.

My guess is you folded but would have backed into some gnarly flush, straight, or straight flush and you are just wanting validation that you were right to fold.

So here is that validation: folding the flop was correct.
No.

The issue is that I played the hand a certain way. At the table I thought it was correct, and I was being results oriented. When I got home and ran ranges through equilab and did the math, I found I was incorrect to play it that way. But I wanted to come on this forum, and you know get feedback from other players. Kinda of like what this forum is meant to be.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:31 PM   #8
shorn7
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

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Originally Posted by whs1919 View Post
If we cbet how much are we making it?

H call 20.

Turn ($96) Qh. H checks, V1 makes it 25, V2 calls. Hero?
Awful flop call BTW. But now that we are here, you can either call as you are getting better than immediate odds for your 12 out draw, or u CR and try to win it unimproved with very good equity if called. I probably flat given how passively you have played the hand so far.
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:09 PM   #9
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

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Awful flop call BTW. But now that we are here, you can either call as you are getting better than immediate odds for your 12 out draw, or u CR and try to win it unimproved with very good equity if called. I probably flat given how passively you have played the hand so far.
Agree after the fact.

I over estimated my equity vs their ranges at the table and thought I might have enough to call getting 20% pot odds.

My thinking was that this board favors my range. Cutoff is probably betting with medium to weak king that I can probably get him to fold on later streets. V2 is probably calling with any piece of the board but does fold on turns unless he becomes nutted or close to nutted. I figured any heart or Broadway expect King is good for my range and my hand, and would allow me to bluff on turn.
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:10 PM   #10
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

Hero check raises and makes it 125 to go.

Any thoughts on sizing?
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:18 PM   #11
shorn7
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

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Originally Posted by whs1919 View Post
Agree after the fact.

I over estimated my equity vs their ranges at the table and thought I might have enough to call getting 20% pot odds.

My thinking was that this board favors my range. Cutoff is probably betting with medium to weak king that I can probably get him to fold on later streets. V2 is probably calling with any piece of the board but does fold on turns unless he becomes nutted or close to nutted. I figured any heart or Broadway expect King is good for my range and my hand, and would allow me to bluff on turn.
This is great....if we are in position. Being OOP makes this extremely difficult to execute and also makes our line look FOS to anyone paying attention. Floating OOP is on of the most expensive and lowest EV things you can do unless you have an absolute stone cold read on opponents (meaning they are very predictable and u can manipulate them for sure) and you are deep enough for a multi-street bluff. None of those conditions seem to exist here.
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:23 PM   #12
shorn7
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

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Originally Posted by whs1919 View Post
Hero check raises and makes it 125 to go.

Any thoughts on sizing?
OK although I would have probably gone a bit smaller (say $85-$90) to make it look value-ish and leave me a credible stack to shove the river. Again, I would have simply called though and continued the passive line given your flop play.
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:25 PM   #13
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

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This is great....if we are in position. Being OOP makes this extremely difficult to execute and also makes our line look FOS to anyone paying attention. Floating OOP is on of the most expensive and lowest EV things you can do unless you have an absolute stone cold read on opponents (meaning they are very predictable and u can manipulate them for sure) and you are deep enough for a multi-street bluff. None of those conditions seem to exist here.
I get what your saying and it makes sense. Thanks for the info.

Luckily they folded so I scooped pot. At the table I definitely felt good about it. But once I started thinking about it more it felt like overall it wasn't a good play in the long run.

What you said above makes sense about different opponents though and is helpful. Luckily ended up playing the pot with people who don't pay attention and only worry about their cards.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:01 PM   #14
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

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Originally Posted by whs1919 View Post
Hero and villains have been at the table for 2 hours, we started brand new table. This is the first hand that Hero has opened or played.
I realize we're on to the turn already in this thread, but can we talk about not playing a band for 2 hours?
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:12 PM   #15
whs1919
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

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I realize we're on to the turn already in this thread, but can we talk about not playing a band for 2 hours?
Lol it was my first time playing live in almost 2 years. I wanted to get adjusted so I was playing extremely tight preflop. I also was not getting any hands. I honestly was looking down at hands like 49o for 2 hours, the closet thing I hand to being playable was like 910o from the blinds and folded to a raise.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:18 PM   #16
shorn7
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

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Originally Posted by whs1919 View Post
I get what your saying and it makes sense. Thanks for the info.

Luckily they folded so I scooped pot. At the table I definitely felt good about it. But once I started thinking about it more it felt like overall it wasn't a good play in the long run.

What you said above makes sense about different opponents though and is helpful. Luckily ended up playing the pot with people who don't pay attention and only worry about their cards.
You know what? Kudos to recognizing that even though you won the pot, something felt strange/sub-optimal about how you played it. That is when you are really being reflective as a lot of players would just forget it because they won.

Glad my comments were helpful. I used to float OOP a lot and so this resonated with me. TBH, you can probably get away with it vs bad players, but good players are going to continually put you in bad spots and you will lose a ton of $ (I know I did).
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:21 PM   #17
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

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I realize we're on to the turn already in this thread, but can we talk about not playing a band for 2 hours?
You've never had bad hands for 2 hrs?
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Old 01-11-2018, 03:40 PM   #18
EJXD2
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

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You've never had bad hands for 2 hrs?
Based on his table reads I'd have gotten involved in position after an hour for sure.
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Old 01-11-2018, 04:10 PM   #19
gobbledygeek
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

I would mostly open limp this hand at my tables, but your raise managed to get things 3way, including against the fish, for fairly cheap. So if that is what was expected, nice.

I wouldn't hate a small cbet for like $10 - $15 just in case our hand is still good (which it may be, so simply a protect bet against random air) plus it sometimes folds out better (although I'm not really banking on that). But I also don't hate a check/fold either (I probably lean to that against ABC players). Check/calling is lighting money on fire, imo.

On the turn I likely just take my good odds and passively call. Yeah, the bet sizing is weak and the actions are weak, so it's possible getting aggressive on the turn might be good. But I'd rather attempt to do that HU against someone who likely has a fold button, and I'm not convinced either of these guys do.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 01-11-2018, 04:26 PM   #20
Joey913
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

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Originally Posted by whs1919 View Post
No.

The issue is that I played the hand a certain way. At the table I thought it was correct, and I was being results oriented. When I got home and ran ranges through equilab and did the math, I found I was incorrect to play it that way. But I wanted to come on this forum, and you know get feedback from other players. Kinda of like what this forum is meant to be.
My apologies for being a bit flippant. What kind of ranges did you put them on (at the table) to think calling could even be close to correct? I'm just not seeing it.
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Old 01-11-2018, 05:37 PM   #21
whs1919
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

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My apologies for being a bit flippant. What kind of ranges did you put them on (at the table) to think calling could even be close to correct? I'm just not seeing it.
So I just started learning range vs range thinking so I am not the best at in by all means but have been trying. Typically I use my ranges as a base, and then adjust them from there based off of hands I am seeing at the table. With the cutoff he was calling wide when in position so preflop I gave him a wider calling range than what I would normally call with

V1 : QQ-22,AQs-A2s,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,54s,ATo+,KTo +,QTo+,JTo

V2 was really wide this range was probably tight for him

QQ-22,AQs-A2s,K2s+,Q2s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,86s+,75s+,64s+,53s+,4 2s+,32s,AQo-A2o,KTo+,QTo+,JTo,87o,76o,65o,54o,43o,32o

On the flop after 2 checks V1 probably using position and betting a little bit wider. Probably something like Sets, Top pair, Some second pair hands and maybe some A high bdfd. He 3bets AA-KK, AK pre.

V2 is probably just calling everything but sets at this point. He isn't raising anything unless its the nuts.

I called figuring V1 isn't on a strong hand, I was getting 20% on the call and figured at the table that my equity was close enough. (It wasn't until after I went home and plugged everything into equilab that I found out I have 14% equity against his range on that flop.)

On turn I picked up equity but decided to check and see what story V1 continues to tell. When he bets small on the turn, I am placing him on weak king now, maybe some second pairs that he is trying to get through with the small bet. He bets bigger with KQ and QQ.

V2 call is weak and the Q doesn't help his range really. I mean he could have KQ but again based on what he has been doing with his strongest holdings he is probably raising this. He is continuing with weak Kings, Second pair, and now probably even a queen for just 25 dollars. Because hey he just called 20, so what is 25.

After V2 calls I figure that both are weak, I have better equity now and some fold equity. Check raise probably looks strong to them and I can get them to lay down there hands and pick up the pot.

But after looking over everything and getting feedback definitely was to much fancy play. It would have been a lot better to bet flop, and if called I could have still barreled turn after picking up equity. My story would have looked stronger the price of doing this would have been cheaper then my check raise, and I have a bigger sized bet on the river to shove.
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Old 01-11-2018, 06:13 PM   #22
whs1919
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

I should say for v2 not everything but everything that remotely touches his range on the flop. So any pairs, backdoor draws, and probably all pairs he called preflop that didn't make a set.
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Old 01-11-2018, 06:45 PM   #23
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

Did I read that right? You've been at the table for 2 hours, but this is the first hand you played?

No wonder they folded
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Old 01-11-2018, 06:48 PM   #24
whs1919
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

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Did I read that right? You've been at the table for 2 hours, but this is the first hand you played?

No wonder they folded
What good is the image if you don't use it right? lol
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Old 01-11-2018, 07:22 PM   #25
EJXD2
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Re: Suited Ace vs 2 villains

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What good is the image if you don't use it right? lol
I agree but same effect in play after an hour imo.
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