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Old 10-18-2018, 08:32 PM   #1
larrytao
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Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

Live €1/2 Full ring

HJ (€600) opened to €10
Btn (€500) called and I (€600) called with 89 from SB
BB called as well
Pot: €40

Flop: K 5 6
We have a flush draw and a gutshot
I checked and BB checked

HJ bet €30 and button called
Hero??

I check-rased to €130 and got called by both HJ and button

Turn: T
Hero??

I shoved

Please criticise my play

HJ is a tight passive old guy that can be quite sticky - it is possible he has a set here but his range I feel is capped at AK max
Btn is a avg reg

I have a tight aggressive image and I guess from a gto perspective, I would have done exactly the same with hands 55, 66 (kk not possible as I would have 3b) 7d8d, 8d9d, Ad6d in my opinion

Last edited by larrytao; 10-18-2018 at 08:56 PM.
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Old 10-18-2018, 08:48 PM   #2
ChrisV
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

The flop x/r is fine but when you get called in two spots OTF you need to pack it in on this turn. Button in particular here has a nasty range for you, with a lot of flush draws which have you crushed and probably aren't folding. Hands like ATdd, AJdd, AQdd, QJdd, QTdd, JTdd, T9dd, etc etc. The T is actually a pretty bad card for you because it turns all his better draws into pair + FD or a combo draw.
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Old 10-18-2018, 08:57 PM   #3
larrytao
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

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Originally Posted by ChrisV View Post
The flop x/r is fine but when you get called in two spots OTF you need to pack it in on this turn. Button in particular here has a nasty range for you, with a lot of flush draws which have you crushed and probably aren't folding. Hands like ATdd, AJdd, AQdd, QJdd, QTdd, JTdd, T9dd, etc etc. The T is actually a pretty bad card for you because it turns all his better draws into pair + FD or a combo draw.
I agree - T definitely helps more towards his range than mine as my combo draw is called at 7d6d and 8d9d
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Old 10-18-2018, 10:07 PM   #4
winadil
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

preflop is fine, you are oop but i think you hands makes up a little for that and with the amount of callers is fine.
flop is ok i could go either way here with the x/r or a call.
what was your plan for the x/r if called or were you thinking just to blast it and hope everyone folds out?
while you hand looks good your read on the players really comes in to play here you mentioned PFR was tight passive old guy now from my experience when they cbet into 3 other players they will usually have TP+ here a lot of the time maybe a big Ax flush draw as well.
either way once he calls, the button is getting a good price on his draw which is why i felt like he is calling here.
If he has a weak TPish hand i can most likely see him throwing it away at this point.
when the turn comes i would be more likely to check and see what happens as being oop really makes it hard to really know what to do and as othet have mentionded it really helps them more than you.
Even after the shove I can still see one of them calling just because the think they are getting the right price(in their mind)

overall i think this play is just a bit too much blasting and hoping it get through and you will lose more often than not
I would really like this play if you where on button.

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Old 10-19-2018, 02:49 AM   #5
PFunkaliscious
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

pot is 430 and you shove 460? in a vacuum that is not bad and you should get enough folds so that your equity plus the folds make this a +EV play.

but really, how do your V's view you? if this is the 3rd time in the past hour that you have made this play, I would not advise it.

the tighter the game and the more sober your opponents are, I like it.

The faster the game and the more degen your opponents are, I dislike it.
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Old 10-19-2018, 03:24 AM   #6
Ray Zee
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

in small stakes you dont play gto you play each player as all are set in their ways unless upset by some other condition in their mind.

once you have a tight passive player leading then you should be done with the hand most times. if you play on because you think you have value then dont get cute as they dont like to leave money in the pot after they entered and usually have a much better hand than you give them.
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Old 10-19-2018, 05:54 AM   #7
krilleater
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

Tight passive old man is leading the action? He probably has a set of kings and your x/r is never getting through + he has you crushed.

Don't pull these bluffs when a tight passive player is betting. Their range is extremely strong and unlikely to fold.
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Old 10-19-2018, 08:20 AM   #8
tmo1120
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

i don't think it is terrible; accurately calculating your FE is the tricky part of the situations; had some factors been different i think this play would be more profitable, like if the pfr was from a LAG
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Old 10-19-2018, 10:52 AM   #9
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

Entire hand seems marginal, not sure why we are engaging a tight passive player with a 300bb bluff. It looks like we are going to own ourselves so much here.

I fold this pre very often, not sure how bad playing this is but having a marginal easily dominated hand oop vs a tight passive player at least to me isn't making much money if any.
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Old 10-19-2018, 05:04 PM   #10
Ray Zee
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

i would fold it pre as well. let the looks fly at me.

to win a big pot from him you really cant get a good flop for it. if you make a flush and play a big pot with him you lose. and most of your straights are in danger if he plays a big pot. and if you make your top end of the straight he has nothing and folds.
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Old 10-19-2018, 05:14 PM   #11
venice10
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

The x/r is spew once the button called. It will nearly be impossible to get paid off if you hit the FD by a worse hand. Nor is anyone with a decent hand going to fold getting over 2.5:1. You're not getting odds to see one more card. I think it is an easy fold on the flop, but if this is how you would normally play this hand, folding pf would be better.
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Old 10-19-2018, 11:38 PM   #12
bodybuilder32
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

Venice, How can we fold on the flop? We are getting close to direct odds to draw to our flush on the turn
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Old 10-19-2018, 11:43 PM   #13
FightingFish
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

Is this such an easy fold on the flop venice10? No merits in check calling here? I feel the button call prices us in..
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Old 10-19-2018, 11:44 PM   #14
FightingFish
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

Plus the times we peel the off suit 7 and aren’t given credit for the straight..
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Old 10-20-2018, 12:29 AM   #15
dangomango
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

you are repping fd or sets and maybe 56 specifically
if you want to rep sets, would you ship turn given such stacks? many players tend to bet smaller
and besides...i really doubt a x/r shop would work, it's like hoping villain folds his top pair on such board
if you want to go for a more credible line, x/c then x/raise/ship the turn, this line reps is more credible for strength that you've slowplayed until the turn
if he doesn't bet the turn, well you saw 2 cards for just 30 bucks

(edit) in a multiway, villain is rarely pure bluffing when he's cbetting into 3 other players...hence aa, Kx, fd, sets are in his betting range, a x/r would never work against such range when he's in position, hence your x/r flop blows off his random bluffs range which he might not even have...in the event you want to blow him off his random bluffs, x/r smaller works the same way

Last edited by dangomango; 10-20-2018 at 12:40 AM.
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Old 10-20-2018, 12:39 AM   #16
hitchens97
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

+1 fold pre. SCs play badly OOP. Much happier calling a small-mid PP here than an SC.

As played call flop. He led into two players. He's not folding AA, KK, AK, and perhaps not even KQ if that's even in his raising range, and he's not leading worse on flop.
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Old 10-20-2018, 01:20 AM   #17
Ray Zee
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

if you make your flush he is going to dump his hand. thats how those type play unless they have a least two pair.
and he likely could have a bigger flush draw and then you are really dumping your money off.
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Old 10-20-2018, 03:20 AM   #18
dangomango
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

Quote:
Originally Posted by hitchens97 View Post
+1 fold pre. SCs play badly OOP. Much happier calling a small-mid PP here than an SC.
we are 250bb deep, i think we can play SC fine even OOP and besides it's a multiway pot, which is better than HU

i think call>squeeze>fold preflop this deep
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Old 10-20-2018, 03:43 AM   #19
Ray Zee
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

what possible hand can you make and show this player that you can win 250 bb off of him with.
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Old 10-20-2018, 04:01 AM   #20
Badreg2017
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

Why is his range capped at AK? Why can’t he have AA or KK? There are 12 combos AK and 9 combos of AA/KK and I don’t see him playing either of those hands differently, why do you? Also, what’s his floor? Does he raise KQ?

Check raising a K high board where you can’t rep much is kinda meh against a sticky villain playing a tight range, especially once the button calls but it’s fine to mix it up. T is a really bad card to barrel once we get called in two spots.
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Old 10-20-2018, 10:56 AM   #21
KT_Purple
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

decent spot for a squeeze pre, call is fine too, probably don't have a fold button here

pretty much same for the flop, seems like you can call too often and raise too often so it's probably 50/50 and depends on reads, we have explicit odds to draw and don't need FE to break even but on the other hand we are OOP and may have - implied odds on flushes as they can fold a lot when we hit, so i like the c/r as long as we aren't using it too often

edit: i think checking the turn is fine, we run into a better flush draw too often imo when they both call the flop and they might just check it thru and let us realize all of our eq

was thinking maybe they fold enough on the turn but no one is going to fold here and all of their flush draws crush us...we often have 3 outs when called by both players imo

Last edited by KT_Purple; 10-20-2018 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 10-20-2018, 05:57 PM   #22
Regurge
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

I like the flop play.

Often in llsnl villain fold too often to the x/r assuming most villain are x/calling draws. I’ve x/r combos and had people fold and table top pair card face up

On the turn 3way I would wave the white flag and pray for free card.

Heads up to the turn I like the ripmore 3 handed expect to run into stuff
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Old 10-23-2018, 01:31 PM   #23
devnull2
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

I personally have been incorporating re-raise or fold from SB and it's been far more profitable than just calling, especially against raises. I would 3-bet or fold pre. As played, flop I would call considering the deep stacks and we have pretty good equity.

For people, saying we should check/fold on the flop, why even play this hand? This is one of the best flops, we can hope for.
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Old 10-23-2018, 04:55 PM   #24
DrChesspain
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdelore View Post
I fold this pre very often, not sure how bad playing this is but having a marginal easily dominated hand oop vs a tight passive player at least to me isn't making much money if any.
After thinking about it, I agree with folding PF. In addition to the fact that our hand makes weak top pairs and weak flushes, the main Villain was described as tight and sticky, meaning our shot at potential FE seems meh, and is even worse now considering that we are up against two opponents.
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Old 10-23-2018, 05:00 PM   #25
DrChesspain
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Re: Is this a suicidal semi-bluff? Please criticise my play

Quote:
Originally Posted by devnull2 View Post
I personally have been incorporating re-raise or fold from SB and it's been far more profitable than just calling, especially against raises. I would 3-bet or fold pre.
I wouldn't mind squeezing with this hand if the open raiser wasn't a sticky old nit, since he is likely raising because he's holding a premium hand, not because he's trying to steal the blinds.
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