1/2, 8 handed

villains first or 2nd hand, no reads other than hes a 45yr old white guy with glasses, sorta smart / nerdy looking

utg straddles to 5 ($300)
folds to mp who limps ($180)
mp HJ limps ($200)
Hero in CO raises to $25 with Q9 (300)
fold
villain in sb raises to $55 ($175)
folds to hero, hero folds for only $30 more?

Villain will have just over a pot sized bet otf.
Looking back I realize that a limp is much better than a raise here given stack sizes but that's besides the point. Call or fold pre?? Thanks

I don't think a limp is terrible but I'd probably fold pre depending on the table dynamics and players involved.

The orginal squeeze is OK. When you get reraised bail. Effective stacks are too short and your hand too weak, you have to fold.

Even if your hand was much stronger this is a fold Without any evidence to the contrary it's best to assume that the near min raise to more then 1/4 of stack out of the SB is QQ+ hoping that somebody doesn't fold.

Probably a call. V 3! sizing is so small, maybe his post flop bets will be similarly small. Hand can flop good draws I guess.

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Pre is fine from CO but fold pretty fast given he is playing <100bb and has 1/3 his stack in middle already

Def a fold AP. V took preflop betting lead w only a PSB behind I expect him to be jamming a lot of flips. assume for a second you do call What happens if you flop top pair? Are you really happy to GII there? What about a FD or OESD? Usually I like a limp here because your hand can flop pretty well and if the blinds squeeze you get to close the action and decide whether to call or fold based on effective stack siZe. I don't hate the squeeze tho. Sizing is good - prob gonna generate a lot of folds. I just think you have to do it planning to fold to a raise unless you were a lot deeper here

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Could be a little results oriented but Q9s is probably one I'd overlimp in the CO after a straddle + two limps already. It's got decent playability post + position and we should be able to win some orphan pots.

Raising is more or less a bluff here and lowers the SPR to a level that is prohibitive for speculative drawing hands, so I'd rather use a hand like Q7s or K3s or something of that sort that doesn't flop nearly as well.

Q9s looks pretty, but it just isn't that good a hand. Against a range of the top 50% of hands, it is actually behind. If you even make a flush, how happy are you going to be having someone call you down, or worse, betting into when you? That's right, not much.

In a 5 way limped pot, there's no poker "skill" that is going to be employed. Someone will have a real hand and you're not going to bluff them off of it. Position therefore will have lesser value. In the end, you're just hoping the flop will hit you hard and someone else hard enough to keep calling. That's not much of a plan.

So limping is the wrong answer in this situation. That leaves raising or folding. I'd think about raising if the table is capable of folding hands pf. At most, I want to see 1 to maybe 2 callers, which are going to play fit or fold. At 1/2, that isn't too often.

Therefore, I'm good with folding this. I'd much rather play something like 85s than Q9s in this situation.

I like either a fold or a limp preflop. It's a fold if the table is active and you're likely to get raised off your limp. It's a limp if you're likely to see a flop. I think I'm raising most of my aces here (some for value and some as a bluff), as well as KJo+ and JTs+ for value. But Q9s is too likely to be dominated if you raise and get called.

As played, I don't think calling or folding is a big mistake either way. It's such a small raise and there's a lot of dead money in the pot. If my math is correct, after his raise the pot is $95 and it's $30 to call. A fold is probably correct, but it's close. So I don't know...flip a coin?

I tend to limp with two gap SCs from the cut off and button, if there are at least two limpers in front of me and I feel fairly confident I will not be raised out of the hand.

As played, I fold to the three bet

I believe this is wrong. I am looking at a chart and Q9 suited is in the 39th percentile of best hands.

Since Q7 is considered the middle of the pack, Q9 would be ahead of it.

In terms of actually playing the hand, I think you are priced in to call.

You are calling $30 and the pot is $97ish, so better than 3:1. I lean toward calling.

Snap fold. Calling commits you if you hit anything, even though you are often still not good.

I think his point was that Q9 was behind a top 50% range. It's better that the 50% hand or Q7. But if it's in the 39th percentile, then it's behind more than half of the top 50% of hands -- i.e., a top 50% range.

We will agree to disagree. I don't make this raise and then fold for $30 more.

It's not for $30 more. It's for $30 now and $120 OTF. The guy bet a "please call me" three-bet from the worst possible position and only 35BBs (given straddle). His range is super strong, and he has a PSB left.

We tried a play to get one or two callers and have position and good FE OTF. It was a nice try. It didn't work. Don't chase it now and make it more expensive.

Exactly.

I disagree with this. Being in position will allow us to make a lot of plays at the pot. Flops that come J72 with two diamonds can allow us to raise a tight player off of a J, or we can steal orphan pots with a board like 2567 rainbow and abc opponents check to us on the turn where we can take a stab. Not to mention v-betting on board where we hit and collecting bets from opponents who call bets with middle pair, etc.

I would fold at aggressive tables where 3-bets and post flop aggression is standard. Otherwise, I don't mind raising pre with a clean image, or a simple limp that keeps the SPR high and the ability to outplay abc opponents with aggression.

As played, very easy fold to the 3bet. With stack sizes, we will have no FE equity post flop, so we would be calling hoping to pink 2pair plus.

You cannot be serious with this...

Why is this your criteria? This is 1/2, people limp all kinds of garbage significantly worse than a top 50% range and we can generally remove the top 10-20% of hands from most ranges when these pots go to the flop without a raise. Hot/cold equity is one piece of the puzzle, it's not the sole determining factor.

This is a blanket statement without context. I am always happy when I make a strong flush, even happier when there are a significant number of combos of worse flushes out there, and happiest of all when I am IP.

This is another blanket statement with no justification given. There is plenty of skill in multiway pots, especially being IP.

Why? According to who?

Okay? And guess what will even worse value? People in worse position than us.

In the end we are hoping to play a stronger range than our opponents in identical situations. If Q9s is one of the weakest hands we are overlimping with from the CO at a 1/2 table then we are destroying our opponents based on the Reciprocality principle. There are so many ways we can win this hand without hitting gin.

Limping may or may not be the wrong answer. It depends on a number of different variables that you treat as binary black and white but are nowhere near that clear. If the table isn't likely to fold preflop or play fit-or-fold post then we decide whether limping behind has a +EV. I believe it does.

Having said all that, in no universe is over limping 85s ever +EV but over limping Q9s in the same spot a -EV decision.

Ya, I think part of the reason Q9ss makes a much better limp than raise has to do with the stack sizes here. Plays better deep, whereas if we only have a 3:1 stack pot ratio we're basically most often usually playing it for its top pair value, which is pretty weak. And we're usually committed. That's how I see it, if that makes sense. GG would probly have some input on this, I assume.

We aren't putting $120 more in unless we smash the flop. Two pair, trips, straight draw, flush draw.

People fold in position to 3 bets too often. This would be an example of that happening if we fold.

I'll leave this as an exercise for you IBYOM$80K. How often do we "smash the flop" as you describe, and when we do, do the implied odds of another $120 make up for all of the times we lose $30?

I'll give you a hint, $30 is 25% (1/4) of $120.

I do think a fold here is correct but it's a bit closer in my mind and in general I think TAGs under-defend their opens. Ignoring the meta game aspect of defending opens, just in terms of ev in the hand...

How deep would eff stacks need to be for you to flat the 3! In this spot?


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I'm looking for 30 to 1 pay off here. Hero probably only gets to see flop and one pair is probably no good. Hero needs to flop two pair+ or a big draw. There is a little money in the pot after the couple of limps and existing action which counts against the total winning. I would want another $800 or so effective to get involved in this situation.

With a better read on villain I might go less. But if I know villain is so maniac I would be willing to play Q9s to a reraise I wouldn't have raised or even be in this hand very often.

Johnny, I've been over this with you in another thread. I understand what you are saying. You don't understand what I am saying.

That's fine. Peace.