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Old 01-28-2014, 05:26 PM   #1
Leobzook
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Struggling in very loose games

My local game $1/$2 is ridiculous.
Even a big $17 open raise regularly gets 4-6 callers. A lot of players seem to call ~$15 preflop hands with any 2 suited cards, even hands like T3s.

The standard tag game does not seem to work here as there are just to many people going to the flop and I am forced to keep check-folding to many hands that I raise pre that don't hit the flop very well.
Even when I hit and have AQ on a QT7 flop against 6 other players I am not to comfortable.

How can I adjust? Start raising to $25 to stop the rubbish from calling or stop raising hands like AQ, KQ and jump limp in hoping to hit the flop?
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Old 01-28-2014, 05:32 PM   #2
fatmanonguitar
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Re: Struggling in very loose games

Don't open marginal hands unless LP. If IP however, you can loosen your range. Typical RIO hands like KT, AT, QJ etc dominate the ranges of the opponents you describe.

Limp suited aces and small pairs to stack these folks with NFs and sets. Raising small pairs is pointless at a table like this.

Raise bigger with premiums.
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Old 01-28-2014, 05:35 PM   #3
PokerFiend4LYFE
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Re: Struggling in very loose games

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leobzook View Post
My local game $1/$2 is ridiculous.
Even a big $17 open raise regularly gets 4-6 callers. A lot of players seem to call ~$15 preflop hands with any 2 suited cards, even hands like T3s.

The standard tag game does not seem to work here as there are just to many people going to the flop and I am forced to keep check-folding to many hands that I raise pre that don't hit the flop very well.
Even when I hit and have AQ on a QT7 flop against 6 other players I am not to comfortable.

How can I adjust? Start raising to $25 to stop the rubbish from calling or stop raising hands like AQ, KQ and jump limp in hoping to hit the flop?
This. But not just AQ KQ hands, ALL OF YOUR RAISING RANGE. There will be a number where they simply will stop calling you with the trash. It will also be dependent on moods/images. There may be some guy who wont fold AQ for 50 preflop. Thats fine. Like I said, pay attention to peoples moods and whose on tilt, then raise accordingly. Next time you go in there though, tighten up your range and start increasing your raise preflop. See how that works out.

Also, when you hit your TPTK or have an OP, play it FAST. Do not be afraid they have 2 pair. Sure they will sometimes, but more often than not you're good and need to defend your equity.
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Old 01-28-2014, 05:41 PM   #4
Eihli
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Re: Struggling in very loose games

What is the average stack size?
Why are you not comfortable with AQ on a QT7 flop? If they are calling as loose as you say, that is good. It means when you hit, they will likely have a hand that will pay you off.
If you want to make the most in this game, you're going to have to gamble. If you aren't willing to gamble, you'll win, but you'll be leaving a lot of money on the table.

Example: with AQ vs 5 players calling with the best 5%-25% of hands, you have the best hand 75% of the time on a QT7 flop. What's to be scared about?


I'm assuming stacks are $200-$300. If stacks are $600+ and they are better players than you, then you may have stuff to worry about. But if this is an average loose $1-$2 game with people buying in for 100bb or less, just wait for hands like this and get the money in.
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Old 01-28-2014, 05:45 PM   #5
Eihli
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Re: Struggling in very loose games

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerFiend4LYFE View Post
This. But not just AQ KQ hands, ALL OF YOUR RAISING RANGE. There will be a number where they simply will stop calling you with the trash. It will also be dependent on moods/images. There may be some guy who wont fold AQ for 50 preflop. Thats fine. Like I said, pay attention to peoples moods and whose on tilt, then raise accordingly. Next time you go in there though, tighten up your range and start increasing your raise preflop. See how that works out.

Also, when you hit your TPTK or have an OP, play it FAST. Do not be afraid they have 2 pair. Sure they will sometimes, but more often than not you're good and need to defend your equity.
Um.... no...
You want them to call you with trash. Especially if you are out of position. By raising so large they stop calling you with trash, how will you make money? By winning their blinds and limps that they fold you to? If they play this bad preflop, they probably play bad postflop. Keep them in the pot and work on improving your postflop play.
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Old 01-28-2014, 05:48 PM   #6
stevesmith1980
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Re: Struggling in very loose games

I fail to see the problem with this game.
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Old 01-28-2014, 05:48 PM   #7
Richard Parker
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Re: Struggling in very loose games

Simple:

Stop trying to make people fold and start exploiting people for not folding.

If you still have problem learning this concept, try playing 3/6 limit.
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Old 01-28-2014, 05:55 PM   #8
PokerFiend4LYFE
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Re: Struggling in very loose games

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eihli View Post
Um.... no...
You want them to call you with trash. Especially if you are out of position. By raising so large they stop calling you with trash, how will you make money? By winning their blinds and limps that they fold you to? If they play this bad preflop, they probably play bad postflop. Keep them in the pot and work on improving your postflop play.
I misspoke. When I said there will be a number they will stop calling you with, thats the number to find and stay RIGHT BELOW IT. My point of raising bigger was to still get callers and get maximum value from them playing trash. Obviously we dont want to fold out the garbage but we also want to make the pot as big as possible with our value range.

Last edited by PokerFiend4LYFE; 01-28-2014 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:15 PM   #9
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Re: Struggling in very loose games

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leobzook View Post
My local game $1/$2 is ridiculous.
Even a big $17 open raise regularly gets 4-6 callers. A lot of players seem to call ~$15 preflop hands with any 2 suited cards, even hands like T3s.

The standard tag game does not seem to work here as there are just to many people going to the flop and I am forced to keep check-folding to many hands that I raise pre that don't hit the flop very well.
Even when I hit and have AQ on a QT7 flop against 6 other players I am not to comfortable.

How can I adjust? Start raising to $25 to stop the rubbish from calling or stop raising hands like AQ, KQ and jump limp in hoping to hit the flop?
I sense a lot of emotion here. If I had to guess, i would say you are a competent ABC player. Competent ABC players have a very strict paradigm about how poker is "supposed" to be played.

However, as winning players, we see the game differently. We see "what is" and we don't complain about "what should be".

Lets sum up the situation.

You are at a table full of donks that are calling big raises with marginal and crappy hands.

How, in god's green earth is this a problem?

The adjustment is simple. Keep raising your value hands and when you hit TPGK or better on reasonable safe boards, bet for big value and get stacks in on the turn.

At a table like this, I'm probably dividing my raises into two categories:

Cat 1 are my big value hands: JJ+, AK,.
--I'm blasting the pot preflop with these hands "hoping" to get a call, that is, I'm going to figure out what the table will tolerate and bet that amount. At your table, this will probably be close to $30 preflop.

Cat 2 are hands that are ahead of my villains: TT, AT+, KJ+
These hands I would raise $12 - $20 in position preflop with the goal to outplay villains post flop. Against these villains that equates to pot controlling when we are drawing and blasting the pot when we hit.

As for trying to "bluff" our villains off their garbage hands. That is probably not going to be profitable.

Overall, these types of tables are DREAM tables. You just have to figure out how to adjust to them. And the way you adjust to them is to maneuver post flop such that you have TPGK+ and then once you have a strong value hand you bend your villains over and prison rape them.

Realize you will raise with AK, AQ, AJ and whiff a few times. okay, fine. but eventually you will raise with AK, AQ, AJ and flop TPTK and that is when you make up for all the times you whiffed by stacking two donks that have TPWK...

Don't let the "bad play" upset you, if anything rejoice.
These are the type of tables that can make your entire weekly nut
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:15 PM   #10
paratrooper99
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Re: Struggling in very loose games

This seems like a perfect game for a true tag. Playing tight is just 1 part of the TAG image. Many players that claim to be TAG aren't nearly as aggressive as they can be.
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:30 PM   #11
dgiharris
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Re: Struggling in very loose games

Quote:
Originally Posted by paratrooper99 View Post
This seems like a perfect game for a true tag. Playing tight is just 1 part of the TAG image. Many players that claim to be TAG aren't nearly as aggressive as they can be.
One of the biggest leaks i see in 2+2 as a whole is the abuse and misuse of labels.

I see TAG, Nit, and LAG thrown around here all the time and in such a way its clear the user doesn't know what the labels actually mean.

paratrooper is right, many players that claim to be TAG oftentimes are not true TAGs.
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:39 PM   #12
PokerFiend4LYFE
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Re: Struggling in very loose games

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgiharris View Post
One of the biggest leaks i see in 2+2 as a whole is the abuse and misuse of labels.

I see TAG, Nit, and LAG thrown around here all the time and in such a way its clear the user doesn't know what the labels actually mean.

paratrooper is right, many players that claim to be TAG oftentimes are not true TAGs.

When players are mistaken and not playing true TAG, would you say they are more tight passive than tight aggressive?
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:40 PM   #13
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Re: Struggling in very loose games

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgiharris View Post
I sense a lot of emotion here. If I had to guess, i would say you are a competent ABC player. Competent ABC players have a very strict paradigm about how poker is "supposed" to be played.

However, as winning players, we see the game differently. We see "what is" and we don't complain about "what should be".

Lets sum up the situation.

You are at a table full of donks that are calling big raises with marginal and crappy hands.

How, in god's green earth is this a problem?

The adjustment is simple. Keep raising your value hands and when you hit TPGK or better on reasonable safe boards, bet for big value and get stacks in on the turn.

At a table like this, I'm probably dividing my raises into two categories:

Cat 1 are my big value hands: JJ+, AK,.
--I'm blasting the pot preflop with these hands "hoping" to get a call, that is, I'm going to figure out what the table will tolerate and bet that amount. At your table, this will probably be close to $30 preflop.

Cat 2 are hands that are ahead of my villains: TT, AT+, KJ+
These hands I would raise $12 - $20 in position preflop with the goal to outplay villains post flop. Against these villains that equates to pot controlling when we are drawing and blasting the pot when we hit.

As for trying to "bluff" our villains off their garbage hands. That is probably not going to be profitable.

Overall, these types of tables are DREAM tables. You just have to figure out how to adjust to them. And the way you adjust to them is to maneuver post flop such that you have TPGK+ and then once you have a strong value hand you bend your villains over and prison rape them.

Realize you will raise with AK, AQ, AJ and whiff a few times. okay, fine. but eventually you will raise with AK, AQ, AJ and flop TPTK and that is when you make up for all the times you whiffed by stacking two donks that have TPWK...

Don't let the "bad play" upset you, if anything rejoice.
These are the type of tables that can make your entire weekly nut

Amazing post, wich i agree with 100 percent. One of the reasons why i like it so much is because your description of OP is myself when i started out and was frustrated to hell why my strictly framed 4x raise ABC poker from online didnt work out at 1/2 stationtables.

When i learned to open up and learned to think in another way my game improved incredibly fast. (raise sizes due to what the table can call, ranges, position, SPR) and more, and not to forget to look for how does each spesific villain like to put money into the pot!

Does villain like call big raises preflop with dominated hands? Play accordingly and look to exploit it by playing a stronger valuerange than him, and win money from him when you hit TPGK or better and he is usually dominated. Raise/bet hard against him so he can do what he likes best: calling. Does villain like to put money into the pot by bluffing it off? Look for spots where you can check and let him bluff off his money to you when you have a strong hand. And you can keep going for all types of villains.

Last edited by Gilmour; 01-28-2014 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 01-28-2014, 06:50 PM   #14
Yokoblue
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Re: Struggling in very loose games

Quote:
Originally Posted by paratrooper99 View Post
This seems like a perfect game for a true tag. Playing tight is just 1 part of the TAG image. Many players that claim to be TAG aren't nearly as aggressive as they can be.
I don't think its about being aggresive. In these table, it's all about never bluffing just value betting... Bet when you have a hand... Fold when you don't... It's that easy... it will test your patience a lot..
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Old 01-28-2014, 10:48 PM   #15
lifterpuller
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Re: Struggling in very loose games

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgiharris View Post
I sense a lot of emotion here. If I had to guess, i would say you are a competent ABC player. Competent ABC players have a very strict paradigm about how poker is "supposed" to be played.

However, as winning players, we see the game differently. We see "what is" and we don't complain about "what should be".

Lets sum up the situation.

You are at a table full of donks that are calling big raises with marginal and crappy hands.

How, in god's green earth is this a problem?

The adjustment is simple. Keep raising your value hands and when you hit TPGK or better on reasonable safe boards, bet for big value and get stacks in on the turn.

At a table like this, I'm probably dividing my raises into two categories:

Cat 1 are my big value hands: JJ+, AK,.
--I'm blasting the pot preflop with these hands "hoping" to get a call, that is, I'm going to figure out what the table will tolerate and bet that amount. At your table, this will probably be close to $30 preflop.

Cat 2 are hands that are ahead of my villains: TT, AT+, KJ+
These hands I would raise $12 - $20 in position preflop with the goal to outplay villains post flop. Against these villains that equates to pot controlling when we are drawing and blasting the pot when we hit.

As for trying to "bluff" our villains off their garbage hands. That is probably not going to be profitable.

Overall, these types of tables are DREAM tables. You just have to figure out how to adjust to them. And the way you adjust to them is to maneuver post flop such that you have TPGK+ and then once you have a strong value hand you bend your villains over and prison rape them.

Realize you will raise with AK, AQ, AJ and whiff a few times. okay, fine. but eventually you will raise with AK, AQ, AJ and flop TPTK and that is when you make up for all the times you whiffed by stacking two donks that have TPWK...

Don't let the "bad play" upset you, if anything rejoice.
These are the type of tables that can make your entire weekly nut
THIS

digest and embrace this well articulated post and change your outlook on this particular game and llsnl in general. if you evolve to this table based on this advice and other good posts in this thread you will start beating this game at way above average win rates

I know because I was like you 7 years ago. I didn't get it then. Now I do and I have a weekly home game just like yours that I crush. Yes, I have dry runs with consecutive sessions of -100bb because I am card dead or I have a handful of premiums that don't work out...but they are far outweighed by streaks of multiple 400+ bb sessions because I run above average and value town them.

one thing to add that I did not see in this thread is with appropriate stack sizes limp behind with the bottom end of your speculative range in position...make 2 pr + and value town them. also these types of villains will orphan 20-30bb limped pots that with position and hand reading can be taken often
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Old 01-28-2014, 11:12 PM   #16
TripleH68
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Re: Struggling in very loose games

Don't feel bad OP. I know a number of players who say "how can you play those 1/2 games?" They can't do it.

Just know this. If you can figure out how to crush this type of game you will have a big leg up when it comes time to move up.
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Old 01-29-2014, 03:43 AM   #17
sungar78
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Re: Struggling in very loose games

I'd maybe add that patience is a big time deal in a game like this. You should be realizing that in a game like this 1 or 2 hands made in a 5 hour session are going to be all you need to win big.
I'd also throw in from experience that you should be careful not to overplay hands like 7s through up to even Js and Qs preflop as you sometimes create spots where you are stuck in the hand, but your opponent plays fit or fold. Also don't let it irritate you when your AK/AQs bricks on you 4 times in a row. Just be happy that everytime you hit w a hand like that you already have an enormous pot in front of you. Good luck in this game, I know that most of us are salivating to play in it. Way better than playing tight for an hour and picking up $5 on Aces when one limper folds to your pfr.
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Old 01-29-2014, 04:04 AM   #18
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Re: Struggling in very loose games

Game sounds amazing. Where do I sign up?
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