Alright, so this happened last night and it seemed like a pretty straightforward play on my end, but I swear to god the table talked about it for like 25 minutes after the fact (and it was only like a $60 pot).

1-3 NL.

V ($400). UTG. MABG. Raises a lot, but definitely has a fold button. Face up folded two pair one hand and a mid flush with 3 hearts on board earlier, makes me think he's somewhat competent, but possible a hybrid LAG/MUBs??

H ($900). Button. Playing pretty tight and not too many hands, but won two very big pots earlier by value betting high when I hit sets with 10s and As. Generally card dead though, folding a lot.

OTTH. V limps, one other limper, Hero makes it $18 with AJ. Only V calls.

Flop ($39ish): A58

V donks $20, H Calls.

Turn ($79ish): 8

Check. Check.

River: 8

V bets $35. Hero raises to $100.

V hems and haws for a little over a minute, says he knows I have the 8, and fold A-5 face up. I muck and bring in the pot, and he keeps telling everyone he knows I have the 8 because there is no other reason I'd raise there.

This sparked a huge debate and I just sort of remained quiet. At one point I told them I had pock 8s and like two people agreed?! This went on and on where it seemed like after every hand someone would bring it back up, a lot of times it was V, and everyone had an opinion about either what I had and why I should have/shouldn't have raised, etc. About 20 minutes later I finally told them I had A-J and the guy calls me a liar and says he plans on getting all his chips back (his like $70?).

About five minutes later he goes bust and leaves, and the chatter about "the hand of the night" died down.

I'm not crazy, right? Was this not a pretty standard play? I figured there was a VERY good chance we chop, a small chance he folds (maybe hit the 5?), and an even smaller chance he goes over the top unless he has the nuts.

**I know we're not supposed to show results, but there wasn't a real tough decision spot for me in this hand. Just wanted to see what consensus was because the table has so many opinions.

River raise is standard. Lol to V folding. I would bet turn though.

Skickat från min SM-G900F via Tapatalk

Mub

I play the hand the same the whole way, except I just call the river donk.

We rarely get worse to pay us off and we rarely get an Ace to fold (although I guess it happened here, lol @ his hand reading skillz, imo). So all we do is open ourselves up to gross situations if they think their Ax is freerolling and shove, or even open it to the rare river 3bet bluff shove (which happened against me the last session out), and of course run into the odd 8x once and a while.

GimoG

A good player would have 3b jammed knowing you never have an 8 after checking turn and that you're only calling for a chop, while V has a lot more 8s in their range.

Raising is bad in this spot theoretically, but obviously great if v ever folds.

Not seeing any reasons to raise here. Either you chop, or he folds a hand you were beating anyway, or he has the 8 or bluffs and you lose money? Where's the bit where you win money?

The only reason to raise with an ace in a spot like this is to rep the 8 and try to get villain to fold an ace. If you want to do that, you typically need to raise a lot more, but in any case this is a very bad spot for it because it's ~impossible that you checked an 8 behind on the turn; it's even less likely that you have it than that villain does. Villain's fold is ludicrous.

Hand illustrates the danger of thinking people NEVER do x or ALWAYS do x. Villain was so sure you wouldn't raise an ace that he didn't bother thinking about how likely it is that you have an eight (or aces full), the answer to which is "virtually impossible" given your turn play.

CV,

Love your analysis. I think typical llsnl players always want to put opponent on specific hand. Never at his entire range, nor your perceived range. In this case you are very much correct, Hero almost never has any 8 in his range, a lot of A broadway or Axs in it. Not many thinking players!!!

Nicely played. River raise is *not* standard, but you felt like V was bet/folding I guess and you were right. His sizing definitely looks like he never has an ace. I've made raises in similar situations at 2/5 and had people shove on me, to which I folded, and they show me our hand was a chop - so just be careful against good players.

Sizing looks like an ace to me, hero has been snug preflop and flatted flop donk and checked behind turn, so his hand kind of looks like QQ or KK. Also, no idea what v would be betting with other than an ace (or eight, obv)

Can't hero have AA raising for value some percent of the time, protecting them from the shove?...or am I just really tired?

Checking AA behind on the turn is a bit gross, not out of the question from some players I suppose.

If V has an ace it is extremely unlikely that hero has AA, and also doubtful that hero plays AA this way.

This.

Hero never has an 8. Raising the river is pointless/dumb and you will **** your pants when getting shoved on.

well played. V cant have an 8 either, so you want to put the live nits to the test in these spots.

these sorts of players are just so scared and you can print $$$ by pushing them off the chop on Ax888 or AK225 boards with all your Ax hands.

I disagree with above and I think it is theoretically correct to attack the capped range. If anything you want to raise bigger, like an overbet all in at 100bb effective or less because his range is just capped to Ax and you want to maximize pressure.

Described V can definitely have an 8. Not sure why you think he can't?

he limp called pre. theres every suited ace in his range, and probably way too many offsuit aces. there isnt a lot of 8x in a nits limp call $18 raise range and we block A8 soo..

then he donk bet into the preflop aggressor on an A high flop

then he checked the turn 8 which is a perceived good card for the OP (in Vs mind hes calling with all his 8x on the flop, but in reality he will never have an 8x)

Considering what V showed up with, he can have just about any 8 in his range, no? Here's how fish logic works:

1. "He raised big, must have a big hand, if I call with 58/68/78/89/T8/J8/Q8/K8/A8 and make a cool hand, I might win all the monies"
2. "Oh cool I flopped a pair, and he might fold 99-KK if I lead out. Maybe i even have a backdoor cool draw."
3. "Ooooooo I made trips! Now I hope he has AK/AQ! I better check and let him bet so i can raise!"
4. "Damn it, he probably doesn't have AK/AQ since he checked turn. Have to lead the river now."

So why can't he have an 8 again? And what part of the following description suggests V is a nit: "MABG. Raises a lot, but definitely has a fold button. Face up folded two pair one hand and a mid flush with 3 hearts on board earlier, makes me think he's somewhat competent, but possible a hybrid LAG/MUBs?? "

I like it, and LOL at V for folding here. Of course he's calling to chop here almost always, but he only has to call a 22bb river raise and he's getting over 3:1. It's not even a like there are a decent amount of combos that he loses to either; the case 8 (which I don't think you can ever have that here), and the 1 combo of AA remaining. A LAG/MUBSy hybrid player, that sounds like a recipe to lose a lot of money in the long run. LOL

I hate villain's donk on the flop. He's preventing you from cbet bluffing on this dry board when you don't have an ace, and you're likely to bet your aces anyway. Terrible place to donk bet.

If you have specifically identified this guys as suffering from MUBS -- and you have -- then this is a good raise/fold on the river. This guy who you've seen fold two pair and a mid flush is not going to get creative and try to 3bet you off of a chop.

Without that specific read, though, I think you have to call. He has more 8s than you do in his range, and a good player is going to put you to the test with a 3bet.