Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-15-2021, 04:39 PM   #1
Mother Mucker
old hand
 
Mother Mucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,475
Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

One room near me allows you to straddle on the dealer button. So if you are playing 1/2 NL, you can throw out a $5 chip on the button before the cards are dealt. Action starts preflop with the small blind...

It's probably always optimal to do this button straddle, right? I mean you're always in position and getting more money in the pot. I could see argument against it if you are playing short stacked but if sufficiently chipped up...

Thoughts?
Mother Mucker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2021, 04:54 PM   #2
Petrucci
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 4,202
re: Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

As long as the stacks is deepish and you have a decent edge on the table i agree yes. Bigger pots in position makes for bigger more costly mistakes by our opponents.

That being said i could see conditions where its not written in stones to do it, for example if a player doesent have that much experience playing live yet and isnt that comfortable yet when it comes to playing big pots.
Petrucci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2021, 05:00 PM   #3
Garick
Herr Dr Prof Oberstlt
 
Garick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Do you even math, bruh?
Posts: 24,336
re: Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

Grunch from title alone. No, it's obviously not always the correct play. If your opponents make less mistakes when stacks are shallow, it would be silly for you to shorten the stacks every time you have the button. It depends, but generally putting money in blind is -EV, even if doing so IP is less bad than OOP.

Post grunch edit: I stand by the above. If it's a game with a lot of limping, raising the cost of a limp is not bad, but otherwise it's really only good if it's hard to get stacks in post in non-straddle pots.
Garick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2021, 05:41 PM   #4
matzah_ball
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,556
re: Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

Others may have done more analysis, but I never really got the whole button straddle thing. Sure, get more money in the pot on your button - but can’t you just do that after seeing your cards and the actions of all the players who act before you preflop? Cutting the SPR down blind when you’re in position also doesn’t make any sense.

It does put a lot of pressure on the blinds, but it’s not like people at 1/2 are 3betting competently out of the blinds.
matzah_ball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2021, 11:17 PM   #5
Garick
Herr Dr Prof Oberstlt
 
Garick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Do you even math, bruh?
Posts: 24,336
re: Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

Actually, if the blinds are playing more optimally by folding weak hands OOP, that is not a win for us.
Garick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2021, 11:44 PM   #6
OvertlySexual
old hand
 
OvertlySexual's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,465
re: Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

An average player online winning 6-7BB/100 overall is winning around 20-30BB/100 from the B and losing another 10-30BB/100 on the BB. He would have been losing 100BB/100 on the BB if he folded every hand, so that's an improvement.

When you straddle the B, you are doubling the stakes, so theoretically you re doubling your win rate from 30 to 60BB/100. But you are also starting the hand with a handicap of -200BB/100 every hand. Are you really coming ahead in that scenario?

What I think is indisputable is that because "you are a good player and want to take advantage of the table", you are lighting the Blinds money on fire, since you not only doubling their blinds for them, you are taking away the positional advantage they have preflop. The best thing they can hope for is to minimize their losses.

When I have people straddling the button on my BB, i want to punch them in the face.
OvertlySexual is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2021, 04:46 AM   #7
OmahaDonk
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,197
re: Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

Very game dependent. If everyone is going crazy pre with raises and 3bets then you are just lighting money on fire. If everyone is tight passive then you can put a lot of pressure in a larger pot.
OmahaDonk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2021, 06:28 AM   #8
venice10
Referee
 
venice10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nowhere special
Posts: 24,462
re: Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

You can alway put a blind raise of $5 in on the button even without a straddle. Why does no one do that if straddling on the button is +EV?
venice10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2021, 06:38 AM   #9
OmahaDonk
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,197
re: Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

Straddling gives you an option and doesn’t let them limp raise you
OmahaDonk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2021, 07:28 AM   #10
Petrucci
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 4,202
re: Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick View Post
Actually, if the blinds are playing more optimally by folding weak hands OOP, that is not a win for us.
Sure, but thats hardly ever the case in LLSNL games. People is bad on adjusting, and the urge to see flops is the major factor.

If you wanna argue that a button straddle isnt +EV for us is totally fair, but that the blinds is gonna play more optimally isnt one of the good arguments.
Petrucci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2021, 09:13 AM   #11
Garick
Herr Dr Prof Oberstlt
 
Garick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Do you even math, bruh?
Posts: 24,336
re: Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

I said "if." Because the question is "is it always the correct play." If the blinds adjust by folding more, that's bad for us. If they adjust by calling the straddle a lot, then it can be good for us.

But generally speaking, a button straddle is just less bad than an UTG one. It is not usually +EV overall, but it can be when the game conditions are right.
Garick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2021, 05:16 PM   #12
sauhund
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: osiasgriffin
Posts: 5,839
re: Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OvertlySexual View Post
An average player online winning 6-7BB/100 overall is winning around 20-30BB/100 from the B and losing another 10-30BB/100 on the BB. He would have been losing 100BB/100 on the BB if he folded every hand, so that's an improvement.

When you straddle the B, you are doubling the stakes, so theoretically you re doubling your win rate from 30 to 60BB/100. But you are also starting the hand with a handicap of -200BB/100 every hand. Are you really coming ahead in that scenario?

What I think is indisputable is that because "you are a good player and want to take advantage of the table", you are lighting the Blinds money on fire, since you not only doubling their blinds for them, you are taking away the positional advantage they have preflop. The best thing they can hope for is to minimize their losses.

When I have people straddling the button on my BB, i want to punch them in the face.
+1
sauhund is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2021, 09:00 PM   #13
tdammon
journeyman
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 336
re: Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

I'm pretty certain if everyone at the table has equal skill then this is a -EV play.
tdammon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2021, 12:01 AM   #14
NewAcctIsBest
adept
 
NewAcctIsBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Guava Island
Posts: 940
re: Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

Straddling makes people play tighter and stronger ranges preflop which can put you at a disadvantage if you don’t tighten up otb as the straddle. I found it to kill action and make my bluffs less effective
NewAcctIsBest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2021, 04:09 AM   #15
TJ Eckleburg12
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
TJ Eckleburg12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 12,770
re: Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

I think generally yes, button straddling is good.

I can construct situations where it ISN'T good, like light, tight stacks on the table, but I'm not sitting in those games long.

With deep (200bb+) stacks, generally loose/passive opponents, and giving yourself an incentive to play preflop in the best position... then yeah, button straddling can be wildly profitable.
TJ Eckleburg12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2021, 10:26 AM   #16
Jay S
old hand
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Balancing by misreading my hand
Posts: 1,446
re: Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

Is it always the correct play? Of course not. It'll tend to be correct if we're in a situation where 1) we'd expect to VPIP a high %, and 2) we benefit substantially from increasing the stakes.

That generally means we're deep at a table with very little raising and we have a postflop edge.
Jay S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2021, 11:03 AM   #17
Garick
Herr Dr Prof Oberstlt
 
Garick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Do you even math, bruh?
Posts: 24,336
re: Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

+1. Nice summary.
Garick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2021, 11:18 AM   #18
Mat the Gambler
adept
 
Mat the Gambler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Greater Worcester, MA
Posts: 1,132
re: Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

My view is that being on the button is +EV. Straddling is -EV, but less than being on the button is, so you're still positive overall, but not as much as if you don't straddle.
Mat the Gambler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2021, 12:12 PM   #19
Javanewt
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: a farm in the country
Posts: 10,512
re: Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

Garick is spot on in this thread.

BTW, the only time I straddle is when the table is doing it and I want to keep the fish and maniacs happy My games allow button straddles (Mississippi), so if the table wants to straddle, I say yes if it's on the button.
Javanewt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2021, 12:25 PM   #20
NewAcctIsBest
adept
 
NewAcctIsBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Guava Island
Posts: 940
re: Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

I have to say that straddling the wynn 2/5 game used to kill my action. If you properly defend your straddle otb you will be playing very aggressively pre and post , and I found that people really just folded preflop until they had great hands cause they were playing for double the stakes and oop versus a player they were afraid of
NewAcctIsBest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2021, 12:56 PM   #21
Viral25
old hand
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Random opinion generator
Posts: 1,852
re: Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewAcctIsBest View Post
I have to say that straddling the wynn 2/5 game used to kill my action. If you properly defend your straddle otb you will be playing very aggressively pre and post , and I found that people really just folded preflop until they had great hands cause they were playing for double the stakes and oop versus a player they were afraid of
^This, very much. I'm sure there are player pools out there that are completely inflexible to any form of straddling, but most people with an IQ over 70 will adjust to a BTN straddle by being more TAG preflop. Even my drooler infested home games became worse after a BTN straddle was introduced.

Fwiw, i currently have 4 databases in my Holdemmanager setup, all with >50k hands, and in all of them i am LOSING at least 50% more bb's per 100 in the BB than i am WINNING on the BTN.
Yes, that's online and 6max, so make of it what you will. I'm just trying to paint a picture of how much more you should be winning to justify putting in 1 extra big blind per orbit.

Depending on the structure, rake might be a significant issue as well.
Viral25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2021, 05:20 PM   #22
roswellsmith
stranger
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 3
re: Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

I always button straddle. Being last to act pre makes it worth it imo
roswellsmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2021, 09:46 AM   #23
Mother Mucker
old hand
 
Mother Mucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,475
re: Straddling on the Button...is it always the correct play?

My apologies about the mispelling in the thread title. Mods, please add the "r".

You guys raised some great points to think about. Thanks.
Mother Mucker is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive