i mean i'm calling turn then calling river or shoving river if he checks
but like
all the "angry" acting makes me think he's just trying to sell Q8 lol

This is like the easiest fold in the world. OP was probably good since he posted but with the action and all the "acting" your beat here like 99% of the time

His acting range (lol) is not just boats. He could do this with 89 etc. also why would he donk 2 pair or a set does hero cbet very infrequently or something? Unless we've seen him donk 2pair+ I'm never assuming its the case.

What about the rule of never folding once we've put in 1/3 of the effective stack? Has served me well thus far. However I do agree that calling the river is break even at best. I put myself into this spot when I called the turn. But who can fold the turn here? Really hard to do in the moment.

Absolutely. This exact point raced across my mind when I was getting ready to call, and is why I've busted very deep in many long format tournaments. The old me calls here in a heartbeat because "my hand is too strong." But I've called so many times here and got shown the nuts. And what's the point when I'm getting terrible odds? If I'm getting shown the nuts so often, don't I need a good price, maybe just a little bit better than 2:1? lol

If he bet $200 I'm snap calling. $350 and it's really a break-even decision imo.

All good points. His preflop raises pre were usually pretty small and rarely shown down, but I did see him 3bet with 22 when he was tilting earlier and had to show that one down. Seemed out of line to me at the time.

I didn't put it in OP, but yes my cbet % at this table was pretty low, as per my usual strategy in games like this. Makes his leads stronger, and no I do not think he's leading into all of us with a naked 8. Again neglected to include that in OP. However the desire to build a pot from out of position vs an aggro deep opponent makes lots of sense.

One pair is not in his range at all when he 3bets the turn. As far as draws, J9 did cross my mind once he shoved the river (as did T8).

The reason I quoted this advice is because I'm assuming he would call any river bet. That's the area where I feel is up for debate. I think blindly calling this river is fine if you are 100% steadfast on never folding once putting in 1/3, but come on, is the price even close to being right to see his hand?

Agreed.

Not much leveling like this going on in a passive 1/2 game.

Yep as stated low cbets here, sorry for not mentioning it earlier. But your point about his "acting range" being hands he deems as super strong vs the table captain indeed troubles me. I've folded strong hands in the past only to have my opponent show me what he thought was the nuts and I go home kicking myself.

It's a good sign that you can make big folds but I think 78, 89 made alot more sense than 85, Q8, 55. I grunched and never saw the river action though because I am raising turn and getting it in

If I have Q8 or 85 here and you fold and show A8, I am probably showing you the 8 too just to tilt you over making a possible bad fold.

I think you were right, although I think showing a fold like that is absolutely terrible and encourages anyone at the table who might be so inclined to start trying to exploit you with large river bets.

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Why would you call turn then fold river?????
Do you not think he'd shove river with trips (w/ read on him: Slightly overplays hands)?

I've read through the thread and people have said some good things but my initial opinion is still the same.

Just gii OTT. You have a raisey image, he's never folding trips. Live tells means he thinks he has the nuts, but that doesn't narrow his range as trips = nuts to this guy.

There are some river action cards, spades MAY kill it some % of the time but not that likely. Q definitely would. You should be stacking this villain who wants to play for stacks OTT.

Personally, I fold turn. People at 1/2 just don't bluff like this. It's way more likely he led the flop w/ Q8s or 85s because he was scared of it getting checked through. This is never a one pair hand. The acting points towards a boat. These are the kind of exploitative folds you can make at 1/2 Live because people play their hand face up.

Furthermore, I hate calling the turn to fold the river. I mean, it sounds like you are calling with hopes that he gives up, but any villain making this kind of move with any hand is going to shove the river regardless. As a previous poster mentioned, if he has 98 here and he overvalues it, he's still shoving river.

I have zero problem with calling turn and evaluating river. Do I think the turn is a fold? Possibly. But just because we called the turn doesn't mean we 'have to call the river'. That's why fish go broke.

This is a very tough fold at the table, a bit easier fold on a message board after the fact. But still a fold.

Limp/call pre, donking middle-pair flop, lead/re-raise turn, shove river isn't 'slightly overplaying' trips.

I would say, never fold your hand face up. I don't know how many people at your tables are really paying attention, but I, for one, would immediately notice that you can make tough folds, and I'm slightly more likely to try and semi-bluff you with my in-between value hands. If I'd notice it, others will notice it.

Either way, nice hand OP and good fold. When V shows you just the 8 you know 100% you're beat. If he was bluffing I guarantee he's showing.

This!

And once he shows the 8 after you fold your hand face up it's a confirmed good fold. If he really wanted to tilt you he would have shown a 6 or something if he was bluffing. V never just has a random 8 here come on. Nice fold but pretty standard

Lol at villain shipping 300bb with 89 or 78. This is a pretty rare extremely small percentage villain who might do this and I doubt this is our guy

What's to evaluate other than "Oh **** he's serious", we already range him on mostly trips+. Calling to fold the river makes little sense. I think it's a bad fold. I would tend to agree that when he shows an 8 after we showed our hand we probably were beat.

We may have to disagree on this. I've seen enough people make 'find out where I'm at' raises, then be scared to put another penny in the pot when called. So I'm fine with a call/evaluate line. Especially given the weird lead bet by V on the turn.

I agree that the turn might be a fold, but I don't think it's clear-cut either way, since we're getting reasonable pot odds on the turn call (approx. 3:1).

It seems like this thread has already run its course, but there is something ide like to add.

I'm not sure why everyone is suggesting that Villain can't lead the flop with 8x. Where I play moves like this are quite common, MUCH MUCH more common than leading this flop with two pair or a set, although I will say that table dynamics have an effect on this sort of thing.

When a weak player leads out like this, I am ranging him on Qx, probably with a weak kicker, 8x, PP's lower than a Q that didn't make a set and maybe some straight draws.

I find that people way over think things like this. "Why would he lead into 4 players with 8x when Hero is going to cbet his air etc...". This is not what this guy is thinking. He's thinking "Oh I've got a pair! let me bet and win before someone hits their AK on the turn or river!"

FWIW I think you played the hand pretty well OP, minus the part about folding face up. To those who are saying why call turn and then fold river... Well we didn't know that he was going jam the river for 3/4 a PSB. If he bet's $150 its and easy call/jam. When he ships it, it looks super strong. Especially after the turn bet small/appear angry/3bet.

Right, and that's not giving me much credit! If he had a worse 8 he'd be thrilled to show it to me and the table, feeling a combination of relief and victory. Nice favor he did for me there, but still a tilting hand.

I remember a hand on TV between Phil Hellmuth and John Juanda at a Trump Taj FT in 2004, where Juanda ships pre with AQ and Phil mucks AK face up (lolz). Juanda of course can't show Phil his hand fast enough.

You're both right, of course. I usually never do this, but the situation was unique. I almost never play live anymore, am moving away in a few months, and was planning on quitting after this hand anyway as it pretty much put me on instatilt. Figured why not try to get a little extra info out of him; nothing to lose, really. (unless he shows me the deuce)

It took me a long time to really understand this concept, but that is why I'm more comfortable playing passively in position at times like this. I was honestly shocked to see him jam the river when I called the turn without much thought, but I suppose I had already mentally planned for it based on experience.

Nice insight, good thread. Thanks all.

1. "Table hates me because I keep raising their limps."

2. "I'm showing down very little."

3. Most important: Villain never puts you on an 8 if you just call the turn.


Call turn. Call any non-Q river. Recognize your image.

Lol at folding. Waaaaaay toooooo niiiiiiity

Even in a loose-passive game, I don't think $10 is enough after three limpers. I'm making it 16 in that spot, but something in between might do the trick. Although I should point out that going multi-way with suited aces is not a bad outcome, because your best result will come from outflushing somebody.

Here are my thoughts on the turn:

1) First, I like your raise.

2) He doesn't think you have an 8.

3) He may have an 8.

4) He may also have a Q that he's getting stubborn with.

In position, I think I like calling the 190 on the turn. Don't give him any incentive to fold. Then, I think we're pretty much looking for any non-queen on the river. I have no problem getting it all in on the river if necessary. If he has 55, that's just a really unlucky turn card for you.

If you're talking about him, we don't want him to fold. We want to keep him around.

If you're talking about yourself, don't give him too much credited. Just because you know you're right on the edge of being pot-committed, don't assume he knows.

Of course it isn't. Hyperbole, yet again, FTL.

If it were the easiest fold in the world, it stands to reason that there would be a consensus in here. There isn't.

Never show big folds. There is no upside to showing all the other players how "smart" you are. I know it can be tempting, but resist the urge. Keep it in your pants.

Villain doesn't have to be bluffing in order for OP to have him murdered here.

Think this is the best advice in the thread. Since hero is hated, vilians are always going to get it all in with a weaker 8. This expands the range where you have to call. Can't see a river fold based on image as described.

I think the pre flop raise size is way to small, and consequently led to making this hand super tough. For $8 more in a multi way pot villains are going to call w/ their entire limping range. This means he can have all the Q8s and 85's, certainly any pp, meaning 55. If we make it $16-$22 pre we don't have to worry about that. We narrow ranges, thin the field, while still getting called by worse oop.

I think normally the same sized weak turn bet is weakness or blocking bet. However, when a guy acts like our raise was the worst thing to happen to him in his life, then 3 bets, we have to reevaluate. By reevaluating, I mean call w/ a plan to decide on the river. Once he jams for 3/4 pot I think we have enough information to make a painful lay down.

For me escalating from donking $15 to gii is going to be the nuts more than not. Is he really only leading $15 w/ trips or worse on a board that has straight draws and flush draws?

Your average 1/2 player just isn't fake weak leading to induce from an agro because he believes his button range is weighted toward draws/floats, then 3 betting smallish for value against the draws, or somehow taking the same line as a bluff w/ a combo draw and then following through w/ his whole stack otr when he misses. You just don't see it.

What does everyone think about raising the turn vs calling? I like the raise w/ our image, but curious as to what others think. What about raising the initial flop donk bet?