yes but this is llsnlol not heads up online. we can do much better than just raising any two napkins hoping and praying everyone folds. Btw no one folds pre anyway.

Sorry, I meant the preflop raise when I said "3 bet"

You're making this way more complicated. Obviously in every hand, every play you make can complicate the next decision. All I was saying is that the preflop raise, all by itself...in a vacuum, with nothing else being considered....can be profitable all by itself if it takes the pot down more than 1/2 the time. That is very simple isnt it?

It's simple and misleading, because you then used it to argue that he shouldn't raise pre-flop. I'm not making it way more complicated, I'm just considering all the factors since it's a complicated decision that you're making too simple.

you went on to suggest people should raise with any two cards, and if called, never cbet. That advice is horrible, especially from someone who brags in the winrate thread how phenomenal his winrate is. These things don't come from a passive player who plays fit or fold. You should never raise pre hoping to take down a few limps (not talking about squeeze plays, just normal raises over a few limps like you suggested).

Here is my original post in the thread

If everyone limped, you are risking $27 to win somewhere around $27 so everyone has to fold 1/2 the time to break even. Forget about what happens post flop for a second.

Will everyone fold 1/2 the time? I would say probably not. So I wouldnt make that move especially with QJs which is one of the best hands to play 9-10 ways. You also dont get too many playable hands in the SB which is another reason I dont like the move.

If you've seen a lot of limp/folding going on, try that play once in a blue moon with a total garbage hand and just promise yourself you will never CBet if called. I would like that better.

Your play isnt horrible though.

I never said he shouldnt raise preflop. I said that I wouldnt do it with QJs and that his play wasnt horrible.

Can you guys read?

I didnt say he should raise with any 2 cards. I said

If you've seen a lot of limp/folding going on, try that play once in a blue moon with a total garbage hand and just promise yourself you will never CBet if called. I would like that better.

That's not an endorsement to raise ATC. Its a suggestion for an experiment to try once in a blue moon if hes seen tons of limp/folding going on. Risk $27 to win $27 and see if it works. If he thinks people will fold more than 1/2 the time the play is +EV even if he NEVER C-bets. If he wants to add a C-bet into the mix on certain flops, so be it. Thats a different discussion.

Isn't the bold effectively saying that he shouldn't raise preflop? When I read someone say they wouldn't do something but that it's not horrible, I take that to mean they think it's a mistake, but not a huge one. Or were you just saying you wouldn't do it, but that's because you'd be making a mistake by limping, and actually raising is not horrible, it's excellent?

And just so I put my own two cents out there, I think this is table-dependent. In most of my games I'd expect to go several ways after making this raise, and would never take down the blinds, so I would just limp behind. If he had a reasonable expectation of getting it head's up most of the time, 3-way or more some of the time and winning the blinds some of the time, I like the raise. Given that he actually did get it head's up even with the very next player cold-calling (which would normally trigger a train of callers) I think it's a good raise at his table. The only bad things are that we got cold-called by an 80 y.o. man, and that the flop was terrible for us.

No, it means that I wouldnt raise in this spot. It doesnt fit my basic strategy, but I can see reasons why some people would try it sometimes.

I think either raising or limping in this spot is profitable. I prefer a limp.

QJs is certainly profitable for 2 with that many callers. If we limp, we're playing make-a-hand. We'll flop 2P+ about 5% of the time, and flop a decent draw (8-outs or better) about 17% of the time.

Raising will also likely be profitable. If we raise, our plan has to be to steal the hand post. We can't make a hand often enough to cover our dramatically reduced IO from the raise.

Which is more profitable depends on table dynamics. If you have loose, passive players that are going to pay you off when you hit, I think limping is better.

If you have weak/tight players that you can move off hands, raising may be better.

I think having the entire table limp moves this strongly into the limp column:
With so many players, there are very likely to be at least some loose/passive showdown-bound players. A raise tends to limit the field to those players, whereas a limp allows us to make a hand and then exploit them. I don't want to plan to steal the hand after I've limited it to those players least likely to fold.

With so many players, the likelihood of a RR, while still small, becomes more an of an issue. It doesn't have to happen very often to significantly reduce our EV.

If we had only weak/tight limpers, I'd raise this all day long, planning to barrel most runouts until they cried uncle.

I'd much rather raise out of the SB or BB with either junk or a premium. With junk, the hand has almost no value limped, so we're comparing the EV of raising to 0 rather than to the EV of limping. Only at a tough table would I consider occasionally raising a hand like this for balance purposes.

Ed This is really bad if you arent paying attention. When you say everyone limps do you mean EVERYONE?

What were the suits of the cards did you flop bdfd? What was pot size he bet into.

Frankly i dont see how you can have a winning image. This is a game of minute detail and there isnt enough info here to do anything but guess

here lies the problem. Is this poker or bj

Mr. Big Deal over here is a bit rude.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using 2+2 Forums

Having a basic or "default" strategy for standard spots is pretty standard. Deviate as conditions warrant.

so what is your winrate?

how many hour sample over what time frame?

no. I am trying to point out to someone who has been bragging about his phenomenal unheard of win rate that the hands he posts and the questions he is asking just don't add up to a win rate better than some of the best pro's in the game.

So everyone (8 players?) limped to us in the SB, we raised, got called by the BB, and we somehow managed to get this HU? Weird table. I would never squeeze lightly at a table where 8 people are limping in as typically it will take just a single EP call to go eleventeen ways to the flop (and I'm absolutely shocked we didn't here after the BB called).

As played, not a great flop as no high cards to rep and pairs just ain't folding this flop to one barrel. Course, he might just have a big Ax and fold, so I'd probably take a shot at it anyways, and bet like a lol $25 and see if that works.

GcluelessNLnoobG

When I post a HH and ask "what would you do?", that doesnt mean I dont know what to do. It means I want other opinions and if any of them make sense to me, I will think about them more and see if I can/should incorporate them into my game. A lot of people here would benefit from doing the same, but a lot of people posting already think they know everything which is what keeps them from increasing their win rates.

And who says my win rate is unheard of? Just because you cant do something (which must be true since you think my win rate is unheard of), that doesnt mean other people cant do it.

I have and will continue to post graphs and stats anytime anyone asks. There is an obvious correlation between the fact that you think my win rate is unheard of and you thinking the lines I take are wrong. If you understood my lines and why they work so well instead of just mocking them, you might be able to achieve the same win rate. Put your ego in check for a minute and think about that. Im coming up on 1000 hrs and will post a graph that you can pretend is fake if it makes you feel better about yourself

Just to confirm my grasp on the English language, you are saying that you believe the probability that every player folds and we win the pot preflop is less than 50%, and therefore you would never raise $27 here?

I would never say never. I wasnt at the table so I have no idea how it was playing.

I see old men limp-fold all the time. When they limp they tend to want to see flops cheap so they hate it when someone raises to $27 and will often fold because it's too expensive. I think they get more tilted by my PF raises than anyone else and will fold to them more than anyone else.

Not a squeeze

Why not c-bet the flop? His range has a lot of overcards and some weak pairs and on the turn we might get a nice card to double barrel with.

I'm not thrilled with the PF raise though. I actually suspect this might take down the pot more than 1/2 of the time, but I'm not sure about that and calling is clearly +EV and makes things easier for us so I'd rather do that. I like to raise PF with hands like this but not in the SB against the entire table.

Edit: If the turn is a blank then check.

Its a bit over 9BB/hr overall and a tad under 13BB/hr during peak times (weekends and evenings).

Closing in on 1000 total hours over about 8 months.

I dont like this play from the small blind with this particular hand. I'd much rather do this with a junk hand like A7 or K9 that I'd be happy if everyone folded. Here I'd raise smaller maybe 15 and see what happens. As played you have to lead out. Your repping a big pair with your pre flop raise. Bet it like you have it.