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Old 11-30-2017, 11:56 AM   #26
Koko the munkey
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Re: Spot against LAG

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Originally Posted by snowman View Post
AS PLAYED SHOVE OR FOLD

your pre-flop raises are weak.
there' s $150 + blinds in the pot and you raise $125 more????


there's $45 + blinds and you raise it $35 with KK?????

when you get premium cards against these guys you need to punish them
pre-flop.
I think this is the best advice in the thread so far.

I asked this once already: for those advocating a call or shove, can you please construct a range for both Vs where I have the 30%+ equity needed to justify the play?
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Old 11-30-2017, 12:40 PM   #27
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Re: Spot against LAG

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Originally Posted by Koko the munkey View Post
I think this is the best advice in the thread so far.

I asked this once already: for those advocating a call or shove, can you please construct a range for both Vs where I have the 30%+ equity needed to justify the play?
Based of the HH you posted, V1 could have Kx. Or 3x. Or a pocket pair. Or randomn shyte.

V2 could have Kx. or 3x. or a pocket pair. And randomn shyte less likely but still possible.

I mean, did those hands really happen? He SNAP!called off an allin shove not once, but at least two times, with total garbage like 63o and 95o? he didnīt even push, but called it off? And if you really have seen him do that, not even once, but on more than one occasion, how could you ever considering folding anything of value in this spot?
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Old 11-30-2017, 12:48 PM   #28
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Re: Spot against LAG

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Originally Posted by sauhund View Post
Based of the HH you posted, V1 could have Kx. Or 3x. Or a pocket pair. Or randomn shyte.

V2 could have Kx. or 3x. or a pocket pair. And randomn shyte less likely but still possible.

I mean, did those hands really happen? He SNAP!called off an allin shove not once, but at least two times, with total garbage like 63o and 95o? he didnīt even push, but called it off? And if you really have seen him do that, not even once, but on more than one occasion, how could you ever considering folding anything of value in this spot?
I guess maybe I will answer this from my perspective. I would consider folding THIS hand because we are at the top of our range on this board (or close to it) and we still only have one pair. Given this V's tendency to monkey spazz, I think we get a better shot with a better value hand in the future. Yes I am assuming that we do get that shot and sometimes we wont so I am willing to potentially fade that never happening. If that makes me a total weenie then I guess I have to live with that.

Not to mention, the tank call is different than the SNAPs so that makes me thing Villain might not have ATC this time and had to think about the best way to keep us in as well.
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Old 11-30-2017, 12:58 PM   #29
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Re: Spot against LAG

you can always find some reasoning to fold.

the fact that we indeed are near the top of our range is an argument for a call though, and not for a fold. Especially against guys who clearly have shown a tendency in the past to overplay and/or just donīt care.

Also, still in slight disbelief of the preflop snap calls, but if he really does that somewhat regularly, just shove pre.
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Old 11-30-2017, 02:41 PM   #30
Koko the munkey
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Re: Spot against LAG

To be clear, V2 is very loose but not an idiot. Snap-calling off $500 with ATC preflop is different than calling a flop shove with the original PF raiser (who made it $150) still to act behind. And yes I think the tanking was important here.
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Old 11-30-2017, 02:47 PM   #31
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Re: Spot against LAG

That's a pretty huge button straddle... Maybe worth it with these clowns at the table but just keep in mind any raised pot is going to be at least 10% of your stack. A 3-bet is going to be committing most players under 1k. You lose some maneuverability but if it increases the size of their mistakes I guess it could be fun.
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Old 11-30-2017, 04:02 PM   #32
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Re: Spot against LAG

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Originally Posted by Koko the munkey View Post
To be clear, V2 is very loose but not an idiot. Snap-calling off $500 with ATC preflop is different than calling a flop shove with the original PF raiser (who made it $150) still to act behind. And yes I think the tanking was important here.
Figured it was. Smelled to me like he wants you to make a move so I would have probably dumped on that alone. But I am sure I miss value over long periods of time with that kind of play.
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Old 11-30-2017, 04:05 PM   #33
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Re: Spot against LAG

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Originally Posted by Koko the munkey View Post
To be clear, V2 is very loose but not an idiot. Snap-calling off $500 with ATC preflop is different than calling a flop shove with the original PF raiser (who made it $150) still to act behind. And yes I think the tanking was important here.
Iīm pretty sure heīs not an idiot. Sounds more like a guy who just plays to have fun aka has reached the endgoal.

Still not folding

I donīt think itīs close at all tbh, yeah, it is a somewhat strange spot, but in these spots you really have to go with your own range, AK is not the best hand to have here due to us blocking a K, but still way too high in our range to fold. If you donīt like that, you probably have to go with history, and weīve seen these two goons overplay and overvalue hands on numerous occasions I believe.

If that is not enough, and you really want to convince yourself with a liferead, go ahead and fold.

I wouldnīt be shocked at all if someone had 3x here. I wouldnīt be shocked if V1 had a brainfart and openshoved AJ and V2 called with a K. I wouldnīt be shocked if the tank means V2 putting V1 on garbage and calling with 99. Itīs still possible all of you have Kx. Etc.

Yeah, we are dead against 3x. But so is Kx against us. We donīt need 90% to stack off here.
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Old 11-30-2017, 07:32 PM   #34
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Re: Spot against LAG

Wtf is this thread? Button straddle 25 is also ridiculous.

Quit poker if your question what to do here is at all serious.
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Old 11-30-2017, 09:31 PM   #35
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Re: Spot against LAG

Easy gii obv. As others have pointed out, this isn't close.
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Old 12-01-2017, 12:03 AM   #36
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Re: Spot against LAG

Rack up pre and go home. This is a dream spot. If you think about folding here you're probably not playing a winning game.
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Old 12-01-2017, 12:06 AM   #37
Koko the munkey
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Re: Spot against LAG

Constructive criticism is one thing and I don't mind it, but attacking me is another. The last 2/3 threads are closer to the latter because they are not constructive or helpful whatsoever.
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Old 12-01-2017, 12:28 AM   #38
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Re: Spot against LAG

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Originally Posted by Koko the munkey View Post
Constructive criticism is one thing and I don't mind it, but attacking me is another. The last 2/3 threads are closer to the latter because they are not constructive or helpful whatsoever.
It's not clear whether or not you're referring to me, but I stand by my comment. Telling you to quit when you are in a poor mindset to play winning poker is good advice.

I don't think you would consider folding this hand if you were on your A-game and comfortable with the amount of money in play.

If anything my post is not an attack, but a credit to your ability. If I thought you were a beginner/bad player my advice would be totally different.
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Old 12-01-2017, 02:44 AM   #39
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Re: Spot against LAG

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Originally Posted by Koko the munkey View Post
Two things... One, please help me understand the reasoning behind just calling the flop bet. This leaves me with $250 behind in a $1320 pot. I'm never folding the turn and if he checks the turn I'm jamming the rest for value. So I might as well get it in on the flop.

Two, can someone advocating that this is a slam dunk call please construct a range for V2 that supports this? If I give V1 every Kx and V2 every Kx and 3x, I still have only 24% equity and the pot is giving me 1560:650

Board: Kh3c3d
Equity Winst Split
V1 14.97% 12.25% 2.72% { K2s+, K2o+ }
V2 28.52% 26.11% 2.42% { K2s+, 32s, K2o+, 32o }
Hero 56.51% 54.05% 2.46% { AKo }

Am i missing something here?
Even if V1 has all possible 3x as well, we still have 49%?
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:16 AM   #40
Koko the munkey
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Re: Spot against LAG

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Originally Posted by browni3141 View Post
It's not clear whether or not you're referring to me, but I stand by my comment. Telling you to quit when you are in a poor mindset to play winning poker is good advice.

I don't think you would consider folding this hand if you were on your A-game and comfortable with the amount of money in play.

If anything my post is not an attack, but a credit to your ability. If I thought you were a beginner/bad player my advice would be totally different.
From where did you the idea that I was:

- In a poor mindset
- Not on my A-game
- Uncomfortable with the amount of money in play

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viral25 View Post
Board: Kh3c3d
Equity Winst Split
V1 14.97% 12.25% 2.72% { K2s+, K2o+ }
V2 28.52% 26.11% 2.42% { K2s+, 32s, K2o+, 32o }
Hero 56.51% 54.05% 2.46% { AKo }

Am i missing something here?
Even if V1 has all possible 3x as well, we still have 49%?
V2 has every possible combination of 3x, not just 32.
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:27 AM   #41
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Re: Spot against LAG

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Originally Posted by Koko the munkey View Post
From where did you the idea that I was:

- In a poor mindset
- Not on my A-game
- Uncomfortable with the amount of money in play
.
From the existence of this thread.
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:30 AM   #42
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Re: Spot against LAG

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Originally Posted by Koko the munkey View Post
V2 has every possible combination of 3x, not just 32.
and lots of Ax, PP; V1 as well.
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:56 AM   #43
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Re: Spot against LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko the munkey View Post
I think this is the best advice in the thread so far.

I asked this once already: for those advocating a call or shove, can you please construct a range for both Vs where I have the 30%+ equity needed to justify the play?
V1: Kx, JT
V2: Kx, 3x, 99, 88

I think the range above gives you 31%. Basically, if they are both 90% value, 10% spazz...you are good. Same goes if V1 is 20% spazz and V2 is 0%, if you prefer.

Against these players, I don't see how you can rule this out with such confidence. We've all seen some ridiculous hands get turned over.
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:56 AM   #44
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Re: Spot against LAG

Op, the problem is you posted this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko the munkey View Post
V1 in this hand is a younger black guy who grossly overvalues top pair. If he flops top pair, he goes all-in.
this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko the munkey View Post
V2 is even looser than V1. He will literally call a raise of any size with ATC. I've seen him snap call a $500 all-in with hands like 95o, 63o, etc.
this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko the munkey View Post
I'm pretty sure V1 has a king, and he could literally have any kicker. He can show up with K2 here. K3 I think he checks or bets small.
and this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko the munkey View Post
V2's range is close to ATC.
Then you flop the toppest of pairs with the toppest of kickers...how can you expect anyone to give you advice that isn't:



I think (like many) you really biased your reads here and what you likely meant to say was that both V's are very loose pre, V1 over values TP post. But V2 is a concern bc his looseness pre means he has all 3x and V1 has a K and we have a K so now this spot kinda sucks.
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:26 AM   #45
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Re: Spot against LAG

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Originally Posted by sauhund View Post
Iīm pretty sure heīs not an idiot. Sounds more like a guy who just plays to have fun aka has reached the endgoal.

Still not folding

I donīt think itīs close at all tbh, yeah, it is a somewhat strange spot, but in these spots you really have to go with your own range, AK is not the best hand to have here due to us blocking a K, but still way too high in our range to fold. If you donīt like that, you probably have to go with history, and weīve seen these two goons overplay and overvalue hands on numerous occasions I believe.

If that is not enough, and you really want to convince yourself with a liferead, go ahead and fold.

I wouldnīt be shocked at all if someone had 3x here. I wouldnīt be shocked if V1 had a brainfart and openshoved AJ and V2 called with a K. I wouldnīt be shocked if the tank means V2 putting V1 on garbage and calling with 99. Itīs still possible all of you have Kx. Etc.

Yeah, we are dead against 3x. But so is Kx against us. We donīt need 90% to stack off here.
You got all the constructive criticism you needed right here. Covers the main scenarios why we must not fold.
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Old 12-01-2017, 04:23 PM   #46
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Re: Spot against LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko the munkey View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viral25 View Post
Board: Kh3c3d
Equity Winst Split
V1 14.97% 12.25% 2.72% { K2s+, K2o+ }
V2 28.52% 26.11% 2.42% { K2s+, 32s, K2o+, 32o }
Hero 56.51% 54.05% 2.46% { AKo }

Am i missing something here?
Even if V1 has all possible 3x as well, we still have 49%?

V2 has every possible combination of 3x, not just 32.
Clearly, i'm an idiot who doesn't know how to use equilab. Hopefully better now:

Board: Kh3d3c
Equity Winst Split
Hero 25.38% 23.21% 2.17% { AKo }
V1 9.48% 7.21% 2.27% { K2s+, K2o+ }
V2 65.14% 64.13% 1.01% { A3s, K2s+, Q3s, J3s, T3s, 93s, 83s, 73s, 63s, 53s, 43s, A3o, K2o+, Q3o, J3o, T3o, 93o, 83o, 73o, 63o, 53o, 43o }

So we need (650/(650+650+410+500)=)29% equity. We have 25% vs these exact ranges, so calling here would a small mistake. However, if V2 has only 2 other non 3x hands, we jump up to >30%.

In other words, your reads on both players need to be almost perfect to consider folding here.

Fwiw, if V1 has all the 3x as well, our equity drops to ~15% and doesn't go over 30% unless we expand their ranges really wide.

I'm actually coming round somewhat on how bad folding is here. Still i'd say calling is clearly the best option, since your reads are likely not 100% perfect and spewtards are gonna spew regardless.
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