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Old 11-29-2017, 11:39 AM   #1
Koko the munkey
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Spot against LAG

I had this hand come up last night and at first it seemed simple but after thinking about it I'm not as sure.

V1 in this hand is a younger black guy who grossly overvalues top pair. If he flops top pair, he goes all-in. He flopped top pair with KQs earlier and open shoved the flop for hundreds (V2 had a set that hand). He's very loose preflop and if he's drawing and thinks he's going to hit, he calls whatever amount you bet. A previous hand: V1 straddled to 15, two callers to me, I make it 50 with KK. He calls with J7o, flops bottom pair, and calls all-in on the flop because the hot topic of the night is how often 7s are hitting the board.

V2 is even looser than V1. He will literally call a raise of any size with ATC. I've seen him snap call a $500 all-in with hands like 95o, 63o, etc.

OTTH....

Hero bought back in for $300 after V1 felted him earlier and has run it back up to about $800. V2 covers by a little bit.

V1 has about $575.

Hero straddles the button for $25. V1, V2 and three others call. Hero peeks down at AKo and makes it $150 to go.

V1 and V2 call. Everyone else folds.

Flop: ($500) K 3 3

V1 open shoves for ~$410. V2 tank calls.

I'm pretty sure V1 has a king, and he could literally have any kicker. He can show up with K2 here. K3 I think he checks or bets small.

V2's range is close to ATC.

Hero?
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Old 11-29-2017, 11:54 AM   #2
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Re: Spot against LAG

Against these villains...how can you ever fold? You only need to be good ~28% of the time if you shove and V2 calls

This hand pretty much plays itself against these villains once you get the SPR this low preflop
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Old 11-29-2017, 12:13 PM   #3
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Re: Spot against LAG

you bet 150 pre and you only have 150 left? Snap call ainec.
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Old 11-29-2017, 12:31 PM   #4
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Re: Spot against LAG

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you bet 150 pre and you only have 150 left? Snap call ainec.
he got more than 150 left. Ainec.
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Old 11-29-2017, 12:33 PM   #5
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Re: Spot against LAG

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Originally Posted by Playbig2000 View Post
you bet 150 pre and you only have 150 left? Snap call ainec.
Hero: $800
V1: $575
V2: Covers

OTTH:

In this spot you should call against these players. You're either way behind or way ahead, in the chance that you are behind there is most likely at least 1 more king in the deck, maybe 2, you can improve with.
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Old 11-29-2017, 12:45 PM   #6
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Re: Spot against LAG

SPR is a little over 1 here. You just have to get it in here. If either V somehow called a $150 raise pre with a 3 in their hand, you're just going to go broke. Even if V1 outflopped you, if you shove you can get a bit of a rebate from V2.
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Old 11-29-2017, 12:52 PM   #7
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Re: Spot against LAG

With an SPR of 1.3 I am never folding this against these 2 villains. I’m not even folding to Phil Ivey and Tom Dwan with this SPR.

V2 is never folding here so just jam it in for the remaining $240 he has left.

Last edited by CWsports; 11-29-2017 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 11-29-2017, 01:01 PM   #8
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Re: Spot against LAG

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Originally Posted by sauhund View Post
he got more than 150 left. Ainec.
ok I took this for him buying back in for 300 and the villain had 800. My mistake but it's still not a fold vs this guy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko the munkey View Post
Hero bought back in for $300 after V1 felted him earlier and has run it back up to about $800. V2 covers by a little bit.
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Old 11-29-2017, 01:22 PM   #9
Koko the munkey
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Re: Spot against LAG

So if we reasonably assume that V1 has a king, what are we putting V2 on?


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ok I took this for him buying back in for 300 and the villain had 800. My mistake but it's still not a fold vs this guy
My bad, I worded that poorly.
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Old 11-29-2017, 02:02 PM   #10
Koko the munkey
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Re: Spot against LAG

Two things... One, please help me understand the reasoning behind just calling the flop bet. This leaves me with $250 behind in a $1320 pot. I'm never folding the turn and if he checks the turn I'm jamming the rest for value. So I might as well get it in on the flop.

Two, can someone advocating that this is a slam dunk call please construct a range for V2 that supports this? If I give V1 every Kx and V2 every Kx and 3x, I still have only 24% equity and the pot is giving me 1560:650
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Old 11-29-2017, 02:14 PM   #11
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Re: Spot against LAG

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Originally Posted by Koko the munkey View Post

V2 is even looser than V1. He will literally call a raise of any size with ATC. I've seen him snap call a $500 all-in with hands like 95o, 63o, etc.


V2's range is close to ATC.
You have answered your own question here. V2 has called all ins of 500 with any 2 cards. He tank calls here. Seems to me that he can do this with Ace high, and all random pocket pairs. Ya u gunna be beat some times but thats life. You have TPTK v a fool who way overvalues top pair hands as you stated in your description of V1. You are also with a moran who will put in 500 with 95o. Are you honestly looking to be a hero here and fold with your hand with an spr this size?!?! I am sorry some one had a 3 but its just a cooler at that point. I pile my $ in and move on to the next hand
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Old 11-29-2017, 02:21 PM   #12
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Re: Spot against LAG

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Originally Posted by The Rumor View Post
Against these villains...how can you ever fold? You only need to be good ~28% of the time if you shove and V2 calls

This hand pretty much plays itself against these villains once you get the SPR this low preflop
Long time no see bud. Hope you've been doing well.
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Old 11-29-2017, 02:29 PM   #13
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Re: Spot against LAG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko the munkey View Post
can someone advocating that this is a slam dunk call please construct a range for V2 that supports this? If I give V1 every Kx and V2 every Kx and 3x, I still have only 24% equity and the pot is giving me 1560:650
Why can't V1 have air and V2 have Kx?
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Old 11-29-2017, 03:02 PM   #14
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Re: Spot against LAG

I guess the one thing that concerns me is the tank/call from V2 since you said you have seen him "snap" $500 with 95o, 63o etc. Obvioulsy up against just one of these droolers, this is a slam dunk call. But against both given you block at least one of them from have a King? God so gross.

I know the math says we should just GII, but I probably find a (bad?) fold here and look for a spot where I am more certain to be in the WA part of WA/WB. It isn't like you are not gonna have another shot AMIRITE?

Puke/fold for me.
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Old 11-29-2017, 03:08 PM   #15
Koko the munkey
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Re: Spot against LAG

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Originally Posted by donbarzini View Post
Why can't V1 have air and V2 have Kx?
I'm not saying V1 can't have. I have not seen him do this with air but I have seen him do this with top pair.

V2 can certainly have Kx in his range, but with V1 likely holding a king, that would give V2 the last king in the deck and I'm always a little skeptical of that.

Last edited by Koko the munkey; 11-29-2017 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 11-29-2017, 03:14 PM   #16
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Re: Spot against LAG

Sorry you got coolered but as described this scenario is never ever a fold.
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Old 11-29-2017, 04:16 PM   #17
donbarzini
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Re: Spot against LAG

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Originally Posted by Koko the munkey View Post
I'm not saying V1 can't have. I have not seen him do this with air but I have seen him do this with top pair.

V2 can certainly have Kx in his range, but with V1 likely holding a king, that would give V2 the last king in the deck and I'm always a little skeptical of that.
I just think your read is too specific with how he plays "top pair" badly. The read should be that he is just bad/crazy. Why wouldn't a player like this shove $410 to win $575 with JT?

And if I think this, a station like V2 may think so too, and be looking him up with 88. There are plenty of scenarios where neither has a 3.

That being said, I would have jammed preflop. There's 150 in the pot, and 1 of the players is known to "snap call $500". What are you going to do the 68% of the time you miss the flop? Just ship it instead.
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Old 11-29-2017, 04:42 PM   #18
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Re: Spot against LAG

Yes, the pre-flop raise was way too small vs. these players. Make it $300 or just shove.
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Old 11-29-2017, 05:14 PM   #19
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Re: Spot against LAG

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Long time no see bud. Hope you've been doing well.
Thanks. Hope Florida is treating you well. It sounds nice at this time of year.

Gearing up for a Vegas trip where I remind myself why poker is dying.
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Old 11-29-2017, 05:32 PM   #20
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Re: Spot against LAG

Lol, you should hop into chat and tell us your bitcoin strat

(Sorry for derail, what squid/rumor said)
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Old 11-29-2017, 05:44 PM   #21
The Rumor
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Re: Spot against LAG

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Lol, you should hop into chat and tell us your bitcoin strat

(Sorry for derail, what squid/rumor said)
lol I saw that and have nothing to add other than I guess it's something to talk about besides how depressing the average person at a poker game is in 2017.
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Old 11-30-2017, 07:39 AM   #22
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Re: Spot against LAG

due to the size of your raise preflop you have to gii here especially with this cavalcade of clowns--what a game!
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Old 11-30-2017, 10:24 AM   #23
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Re: Spot against LAG

huh???

you only have 225 on top of the 575. it is either shove over the top of the donker or fold to the 410.

ranging V2 on a 3 for that price is superduper hero folding.
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Old 11-30-2017, 10:42 AM   #24
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Re: Spot against LAG

AS PLAYED SHOVE OR FOLD

your pre-flop raises are weak.
there' s $150 + blinds in the pot and you raise $125 more????


there's $45 + blinds and you raise it $35 with KK?????

when you get premium cards against these guys you need to punish them
pre-flop.
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Old 11-30-2017, 11:29 AM   #25
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Re: Spot against LAG

This shouldn't even be a question. If one of the V's is lucky enough to have a 3 or LOL aces, good game, you'll get your money back soon enough anyway.

Snap shove and throw a goddamn parade.
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