Link to previous COTM - Basic Tips For Live Players


When playing live poker, it is instantly easier to identify opponents playing styles compared to online play. One interesting dynamic is the players who are playing scared money. These are one of the easiest players to exploit because of how ABC and weak-tight they play both post and pre flop. I have put the scared money players into 4 main categories that you are most likely to come across.


Identify – These players are unsure where the cashier is and where to buy chips, they fumble their chips and count them in a slow unconventional manner like stacks of 2. They also keep their chips in small stacks and are often nervous about standard procedures like when the action is on them and will make mistakes like string betting and not protecting their hand. Usually young players who have dabbled online and want to try live, they take their money out with their wallet under the table.

Exploitation – LPN’s will be playing very tight pre-flop, they will folding most suited connectors and will fold hands like A10 OOP to a btn raise. When they flat your PF raise their range is generally 22+ AJs+, this range widens and shortens depending on their position and amount of players in the pot. When heads up i cbet these players almost 100% of time and will 2 barrel in spots where they can’t have much or the board gets scarier. These players often won’t think which hands make sense that beat them, they just think which hands beat them. This means barrelling flush and straight cards will fold out their 1 pair hands almost all the time, and if they have a set in these situations, they are calling to fill up on the river or fold. They fold 99 on a 10 high board to LP raises, they fold KJ on a 1092r to a maniac. When they call their range is often polarised and tight. I would advise against 3 barrelling since, their turn calling range is often so strong unless the right river bluff card hits c/f is often the best line.

Getting value from these players is often very hard without coolering them. Your edge comes from taking down the non-showdown pots, they will have a better hand at showdown than their opponents the vast majority of the time, purely because they very rarely reach showdown. They also very rarely make moves, c/r are usually signs of monsters and 3bets pre should be folded to unless you are getting a very good price, they will have QQ+ but will be able to fold post flop so there isn’t too much value in flopping a set. Cbets from LPN’s are rarely air and they will often be hoping you fold, even if they have top pair.

Summary – Look to bluff in lots of spots by 3betting, 2 barrelling and betting scare cards. Avoid playing back at their aggression and be aware of what their range is in spots since it is often so easy to identify.

Identify – Often known and friendly with a lot of people in the casino, often look scruffy will turn up in their work clothes. Only play when they have the money. Have ‘live player’ flawed logic when discussing poker strategy “raise to find out where I’m at” “Can’t bet that river, there’s flushes and straights going on”. They buy in for irregular amounts and may have the notes stuffed in their pocket. They can’t really afford to lose the money they’re playing with but convince themselves they are better than everyone and expect to win.

Expolitation – LSR’s have a much broader style that the LPN’s, they are usually loose and vary between passive and aggressive. Their expectation of winning gives them a strong reluctance to fold. The Loose aggressive players will be over-valuing their hands both post and pre flop, you should try to play pots with them in position and value bet them relentlessly. They often turn value hands into a bluff without realising and will tilt when they are losing because of the contrast of expectation. Bare in mind that you often have good implied odds when making decisions in hands, however they often reduce aggression you are aggressive back, so c/r can be less profitable than c/c in a lot of spots because they can find a fold once you raise, it you call they convince themselves that you are at the bottom of your range, and will almost always pay you off on the river when you are the aggressor.

The loose passive are slightly trickier to play against. They are limp calling pf with the vast majority of their range, they almost never 3bet and are unaware of position. You should be more prone to value betting these players than bluffing and cbetting because they cannot fold hands despite playing scared money.

Summary – Value bet and 3bet a wider range than normal and only play back at them when they have bluffs in their range since they struggle to fold value hands and weak draws.

Identify – Although these players are not playing out of their bankrolls, they play scared because they are scared of losing, they think for a long time on the river and then call with a really strong hand and will say “Well he might have a higher flush”, they are always thinking about the hand that beats them regardless of whether that hand makes sense or not.

Exploitation – Similiar to the LPN’s, your main value from these players comes from non-showdown pots, they only play super strong hands and are very abc. PF they limp with pocket pairs to hit a set or fold, they raise big hands in position, limp them OOP and 3bet QQ+ and sometimes not even QQ. They will also be limping suited connectors and suited aces, they win in small stakes because bad players always pay them off. You should isolate their limps IP a lot and win the pot with a cbet, this will happen so often and instead of playing back at you (standard adjustment) they will just sit there and think “im going to trap him” so when they do play back at you, they almost always have it and arn’t capable of sophisticated bluffs.

Similar to the LPN’s bluffing scare cards is +ev a lot of the time because they have no trouble instantly putting you on the made draw. They also take very standard lines with their hands, if they have a big hand on a wet board, they c/r, draw they c/c, over-pair they bet and slow down on turn or river and set / 2 pair on a dry board will often be c/c on flop and then c/r or b/c on the turn.

Summary – Isolate and cbet with a high freq. In positon, be aware they will play their hands very straight forwardly and take basic lines. Avoid putting money in the pot when they show post-flop aggression and don’t be too reluctant to 2/3 barrel as they will often fold most of their 1 pair hands to big bets (“have to have 2 pair minimum to call that bet)

Identify – This is the most interesting of the lot, these are quite unique in that the player is situational and not part of a set group as the above 3 are. These players are losing in the session, down a few buy ins, generally had some bad beats/coolers and are frustrated at losing, they have rebought and they are determined not to lose this buy in. They are constantly complaining about being dealt crap, wanting to show their neighbours and often complaining that everyone is running much better than them.

Exploitation – These players are on a unique type of tilt, firstly they do not recognise that they are on tilt. They drastically reduce their aggression than how they would normally play. They are calling lots of raises pre regardless of position and then c/f when they don’t hit. They are no longer worried about what odds they are getting or opponents ranges. They are narrowed in on their own hand and they are determined to win their buy in back. Despite the drastic reduction in aggression, you can still expect some bluffs with lines that make no sense and a reluctance to fold when they put a lot of money in the pot. You should be isolating their limps and value betting thinly. Expect them to c/c most flops and if they limp pre do not expect them to fold to a raise.

Semi-bluffing is +ev because you can expect them to fold most and not c/r much as well as pay you off if you hit. Monitor their stack size however as their play will change as it inevitably gets smaller, they may start shoving pre desperate to win back their losses. This is where they are no longer scared money as are turning into maniac aggressive mode.

Summary – Look to cbet and bluff these players as they are less likely to hero call and make plays back at you. When IP with a big hand and they have limped, raise larger than normal as you can expect them still to call and you set the pot for an all in on turn/river.

First, well done.

The big thing with all of them is that they are thinking that if they lose the money on the table, their night is done. They may dig in for more, but at that moment, that's all the money they are committing. None of them want to leave, so they aren't putting their money all in with less than a monster if they have 70BB or more left.

The opposite happens when they get short. If they are nursing a dwindling stack, they often will switch gears at 10-15BB and shove often light, with either a pair or a draw. The thinking is they're tired of folding (that's not what they came to do) and want to double up so they can play or call it a night. A key indicator is whether it is around a meal time or after 11 pm and especially if their significant other shows up.

Excellent post YCR. Have not fully digested and am not ready to poop out a full response yet but I like the concepts and the idea.

Something relevant that I recall being mentioned on a Duecescracked podcast by Limon:

Online, people multitabling 8 tables of a certain stake can usually afford it easily, thus bets are proportional to the pot size and can deny odds, bet for value etc.

Live it's the opposite. People tend to play the highest stakes they can afford in the casino (or, such is the case, higher than they can actually afford). Thus, even if a bet is small compared to the pot (like 200 into 500), this is actually a huge bet to them, and especially with scared money, should be viewed in that context.

+1 Excellent

This is one area that needs some love.

There are two mindsets with scared money players. Those that look at chips as chips and those that see the actual money value.

The LPN's almost always think in terms of dollars. They relate that $250 in their stack in terms of car payment, rent, etc. This provides an additional weapon against them, making a bet that is equal to their car payment can have huge FE.

The other types listed can be either chip are chips people or chips are cash people. But even the chips are chips people can feel the pressure of the cash value when facing truly big bets. It's only between hands that thoughts of money value enter their heads, unless facing that "huge bet to them".

Playing a LSR once that I had played with for years, we are both very deep, I flopped quads in a 3bet PF pot and was driving the action hard. We get to the river where I have been making PSB+'s OTF/T... He checks the river and I shove for about 1.5 x the pot... He looks at me and says "Damn, you know I could pay my mortgage for 4 months with that pot...", tanks some more before calling with the second nuts... In almost 4 years of playing/talking with this guy this is the first time I have ever heard him talk in terms of chips are money.

He told me later that he was sure he had me beat because "no one would ever lead quads". So here you have a guy that is sure he has the virtual nuts, has completely convinced himself that I would never bet quads like I did, and yet tanked the river before calling. He never even considered I had quads, he was stuck on the value of the chips... he was thinking in terms of mortgage payments.

Awesome! Very well written YCR.

I have a few questions though. It's always been grinders talking about how to exploit the weak and the topic has always been the image of these weaker ones and the negativities about the way they play. I was just conjuring some questions in my head while reading your post regarding on the optimal hero play.

What do you exactly mean when you mentioned that we should be playing back at these people? Do you imply that we should make more moves against them, for example, without having an actual hand?

What about the other non-donkey regs whom you meet at the tables? Should we take particular care to avoid a heads-up collision with them?

Case in point: At a game I play, there there is one regular who is able to manipulate the table and make huge profits from it. He is very very very loose, plays a ton of hands preflop, but makes good decision postflop. I like 3betting him pf, 3 times we saw a flop, and 2 out of 3 times we went to showdown was when I actually had a premium hand. Problem is I can't wait for premium all day just to outplay him. He always buys in deep (300-500BB) and likes to build pots such that he has higher fold equity when scare cards drop. He almost always represent those scare cards (IP or OOP). He makes pf raises expensive - 10 to 15 BB - and thus less ev for others to call with speculative hands, even in position. He cbets 80% of the time, and rarely folds with a draw, including gut shots. He has been able to accurately narrow down my range, perhaps because I play too predictably. I would consider him a Supreme Donkey Crusher (as expounded on in another thread on 2p2). What would be the optimal play against these kind of people? Should I b/c or c/r him on the flop more often? c/c him down lighter? Ignore scare cards when they fall? What is the way to play back at these people?

Nice post, YouCheckRaise! Most of the points are spot on.

When playing vs. scared money, I've always thought about the points which OP talks about as the bankroll edge I have on these players, borrowing the terminology from an old interview where Barry Greenstein spoke about why he never ran it twice on HSP. I am well rolled for the stakes I play, I have a gameplan and know my hourly rate, I am happy to pull up and reload any time. Overall, it allows me to semibluff/pure bluff/generally LAGtard it up more vs. players who are scared money. Hooray for spewtastic play.

To amortization: if someone is playing scared money then you probably have more fold equity. So capitalise on the marginal spots and push those 50/50s hard. But be aware that most live villains, they do not like to fold.

The second part of your post seems about someone who is... not scared money. At all. Either way the topic has been discussed numerous times, with the advice generally being - choose good preflop hand, make good hand, win big pot. Alternatively, I prefer advising people to be even more LAG than their table bully. Nonetheless, If the player is truly a very good LAG (which I think is somewhat unlikely) then consider playing less deep and playing vs. him less.

I'll make it brief, because I don't want to derail the thread. He's playing an exploitable game because nobody is adjusting. The key is to figure out how to exploit him. I suggest reposting this part as a separate thread and we can go into more details.

Can see myself right amongst the loosing semi-reg section.

I would venture that almost everyone has been a LPN and a LSR at some point or another.

I will venture to say there are a ton of LSR people out there. I even will go so far as to say that the majority of the typical sslnl players fit this category. Think about it a second... Just how many people have the ability and discipline to save for a 10 to 30 buy-in roll BEFORE playing.

Something I think should also put in there about the LSR is that while this player tends to play bad because of their BR issues, that does not mean that this player is not a good player. If they can get their BR demons under control they can and do play well, assuming they have it in them to begin with.

the next good post would be how to get OUT of one of these categories. I have found myself lately turning into a Reg Nit, mainly due to some horrible beats and bad sessions where I've run into guys on super heaters who ALWAYS have it, people sucking out on me, etc. When the dealers and other players are even commenting on how bad I run....it's bad. LOL

So now I totally see myself nitting it up and folding everything, even when I'm probably ahead.

Driving home last night I realized I was playing scared, not because of bankroll, which is really no issue to me, but because I am seeing monsters under the bed every hand. The worst part is, I know THEY know I'm playing like this and using it, and i still can't get out of this nitty place i've fallen into.

I guess my first step was realizing the issue...now...how to change it?

Three things have helped me... now if I could just master them at command.

• Have a positive attitude and outlook. If you are having any mental disruptions in your life you maybe better off putting poker on the back burner until you can sort that out. Myself, this is the biggest factor on my results.
  
  
• Don't take it personal. Too many times we somehow manage to relate running bad to personal performance. The cards are set at the end of the shuffle, they do not know who you are. Something I have to remind myself from time to time... No one deserves to win any given hand of poker. AA vs a random hand wins about 85% of time, that means that 15% AA has to lose, even if you play it perfectly.
  
  
• When I am falling into a bad place, I try to change things up. Play at a different room, play a different game. Change the way you stack you chips. Change, change, change... That seems to help snap me out of a rut.

Finally I would add do not fall into the classic live player mindset. Avoid the superstitions that plague the typical player... "That seat is hot", "That is my unlucky dealer", "I never win with aces", "Just can't beat that guy", etc, etc. While we here on 2+2 may tell ourselves we do not believe in such nonsense, it can still creep into the mind... especially when we have anecdotal evidence to support them. There is nothing like coming to a table with two seats open and you chose one and let the other new player take the other, only to hear that the last two guys in seat 9 doubled, tripled up and then see the other new player now in seat 9 double up on his/her first hand.

Ugh, I can SO related to playing scared money.

It seems that I butcher many hands, that, when looking back on them are in fact so simple and straightforward but yet I keep doing the opposite of what I know I should be doing...

e.g. falling into the 'trapping' mentality, limping along w/ trash, checking when I should be betting, never having the guts to call/bet when I know from my read that it will take the pot.. =(

It's so hard for me to break out of it though, I can't seem to think properly when playing on the felt as opposed to playing online

Great thread, very good OP.

If you have the image of being scared money( maybe you have just seen 92o in the hole for an hour and a half, maybe its your first time in a live casino but you know what you are doing and you are not being results oriented), you should have had the time to identify the stronger players. Now you can make moves on them, checkraising with air and so on. They should know what a ****ing nit you are, love that image. Dont do it to the action junkies, though.

Excellent article. Just wanted to say thanks. Already put it to use a little bit check-raising a nit or two as well as to use my image that may have appeared to a 2/5 reg to be scared money to bluff him off a monster pot.

BAEVentures

?

I think the biggest piece of your comment is the fact that the guy went into the tank for the pot. I mean, as described he has the second nuts to quads, which is likely a massive overboat (assuming the board is not double paired, he has a boat over the board)... This is a get the money in the middle moment; especially at a lower limit.... Yet, this guy was considering folding, smoothed, and he didn't auto-shove.... I mean... really?!

Its to the point where my live winnings occur at mathematically improbable amounts.... And I wonder just how much more fold equity do I leave on the table against these people? If the guy tank/calls with an overboat, what's he do with top pair normally?

Reminds me of a hand where I preflop 3bet to 35 a woman new to the table w/ K9 (there were 2 callers in front.... from limp-folding kinda guys).... I get smoothed. Flop comes KKQ, she leads about 35 w/ about 120 behind. I insta raise to 200... folds to her (there was a random other dude in there). She goes to the tank.... Hard. I mean at this point, i'm worried she's got a real K and I'm about to go down in flames w/ my crap kicker. But no, its worse, much worse.... She goes "Do you really have the Quads?" And then, in the most excruciating looking motion ever, slow calls, with pocket Qs for the boat.... Yes I lost, but agains that kindof crowd, poker gets ridiculously profitable. just c/r or backraise a turn and watch them fold. fold fold.

Everything but the regs have the same flaw:
Way, way, way too soft post flop.

So true. I violated some poker regs when the WSOP came to town due to this. Watched them fold top pair to squeeze bluffs--Positive I had a set when I had an inside straight draw. Heard them referring to me as a nit and a fish b/c I played relatively tight. I've never chipped up so fast just bluff bluff bluffing my way.... And after all that, they still paid out quads with 2 pair and 2 pair with top pair.... I love poker.

I "just" found COTM threads and this was my first read.

Absolutely FANTASTIC stuff !!!

Can't wait to read more.

You have a new number one fan.

Thank You.

also i think a point not stated is ur table image and knowing how ppl perceive you...maybe this doesnt fit into this month's cotm but knowing what ppl think of you is really important...for example ive found that when i have my hoodie and ipod on, suddently not every pot i get involved is family. livedonks get scared really easily its absurd...i also dont like bluffing much until ive shown down a winner a couple times. once you have the people thinking youre good and know what youre doing, its license to abuse everyone and make them cry

Quick question.

Are there only 2 COTM threads so far ???

The only other one I see is the link OP made.

Thanks.

Yes. This is a new forum that's only been around a couple of months.

Excellent post! The LPN described me to a tee when I first started playing. Actually I still fall into that category occasionally, as I don't have that many hours live, but this post will help me leave that stage for good, I think.

cool thread, i was actually chuckling while reading some of the stories about how scared people play in live games. i havent really thought about it much, but live donks are soooo exploitable, even some of the "better" players.

nice post

There are a lot of good ideas in this thread, but I think there is one big logical jump that is missing.
With regard to betsizing and fold equity: you are all right that you can get a lot of FE with real world sums. This also has MAJOR implications for when you want to get value, too.
Scenario: 5/10, we have bet flop and turn ip in a singly raised pot, and the pot is ~500 on the river. Weak-tight standard live bad villain checks to us, and we have to decide what to bet.
If I want to get called: I bet 295-299, because its UNDER a real world sum.
If I want to get a fold: I bet exactly 300.
If I think villain has a hand that will bluff-catch a lot, but we both could have missed draws and my missed draw will lose at showdown: I bet exactly 100. (You can examine calling frequencies on your own and decide where this is more profitable than a standard bet, but these situations exist. You can do the same thing to fold people off of chops, like with AK on a 23798 board in 3b pot where it gets checked to the river).