Since chat threaders want more bluff threads, here's one:

Was this spew, value-y looking or just not good sizing? I think the sizing was pretty bad in retrospect and so did a player watching the hand (and 2plus2er).

First orbit at the table. Eff. stacks: $300. 1/3 blinds.

Most players at table recognize hero. Villain does not. Villain is late 20s, early 30s and has at least 200 BBs in front of him. He is directly to hero's left.

Hero opens to $15 with KJ suited.

Villain calls. One other caller.

Flop AQ9 rainbow.

I bet $25. (Pot $45). Pretty standard c-bet sizing for me. Only villain calls.

Turn offsuit 6. Completing rainbow.

I bet $50. (Pot $95).

River 7.

I bet $75. (Pot $195). Here is where I think I should go bigger - probably like $125.

Player not in hand after villain calls says 'He has AK or AQ,' referring to me.

Thoughts?

Running a bluff against an unknown seems spewy in general, no?

As for bluff bet sizing (if we are taking the bluffing route), I'm actually cool with the smaller sizing. The smaller size looks begging to get called for value plus has to work far less often than a bigger bet to be profitable.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Id say bad in the sense that he's unknown so you really don't know what he's like. Also that's not really a board he could have whiffed on the river with a draw. After calling two barrels he usually has an ace. Bigger sizing could have helped with that. Really need reads on him to know if its good.

Grunch:

If you played the hand in a way that you would play a value hand, that means it shouldn't work as a bluff, because if you expect to get value this way, you can't also expect that your opponents will adjust to you--especially one who doesn't recognize you.

In the dark, I dislike this bluff because you have incomplete information and an unknown is far more likely to look you up to get the information. If you knew the player well enough that they were a weaker player and could fold all but the top of their range, then the sizing is wrong. Especially at live games, players tend to view large bets as large hands, meaning if you bet 150, you should fold out all but the top of his range, giving you actual FE. At 75, in a game I often play, I'd probably call you with any mid Ax and hope you are on KK/KQ, but at least then I'd know how you play. To be fair, in reality, I'd fold a middle Ax except for AT or Axs preflop, and probably would let go on the turn, but a lot of weaker players wont.

Tough way to go - small bets OOP.. I would say check-ship turn if you were shorter, or check-raise turn / ship river if deeper.. but your stack OTT makes this spot very awkward to size a bluff line.

Ya the bigges problem is the mere lack of history. This guy may very well station with any Ax hell who knows maybe even any Qx. The value bet bluff works great vs competent vlians that have a fold button. It will also depend on what villan thinks of you. When you have no reads its best to default to not triple barrell and maybe not c bet this flop.

A lot of players will check/call check/call check/fold but much less on an A hi board where we have to give them a pair of Aces +. So if we are going to bluff a player off
What we suspect to be a weakish A a flop c/r or substantial river barrel are the only ways.

Most players don't call raises with Ax Hit an A, call flop and turn to fold river.

So once he gets to the river I don't expect him to fold an A of any kind to a value looking bet. Maybe if the flop was 2 flush we could put enough pair / FD hands in his range that a big river barrel would be profitable.

I agree that we can construct the best bluffs when we know how our villain reacts in spots so bluffing an unknown is less optimal.

so he called you down with QJ? A2?

If you are just going for straight fold equity with little regard for ROI, the best move is to bomb the turn for 95. Make it look like you have a monster and your are going for max value.

So then if he calls the turn, he is going to have to then be prepared to call something like 220 on the river.

in general, I'd rather bluff against villains whose tendencies I know so that I can take advantage of them.

your other problem is that you don't know what villain thinks about you - you haven't built up an image to use

then, I'm looking for help from the board - scare cards primarily that a level 1 hand/board reader can look at and believe you have

finally, I want to use my bet sizing to make it a significant risk/decision for villain to be making.

and lastly and most importantly, the reason we make money at low stakes is because villains are incapable of folding top pair, so you should use bluffing, even in the right conditions, sparingly.

So I think this is a bad spot to bluff and it's badly executed. Bet/fold flop, check/fold turn

Yea sizing is small. Needs to be atleast 30-35 flop, 75-85 turn to give us some FE. If I want to bluff here I probably go for the c/r at some point, but I think you just picked a bad time to try this. Brand new to the table with 0 reads on V, a short stack and OOP are probably more than enough to keep the spew monster at bay for me.

This feels like an ego bluff gone wrong

He tank called with a 10

Sent from my Nexus 5 using 2+2 Forums

I didn't mentioned any short stacks

Sent from my Nexus 5 using 2+2 Forums

Agree with wrath. Don't bluff unknowns.

If you are going to bluff, pay more attention to the bluffs that SABR posts. He's doing it when the villain's range is capped and is making it extremely painful for a TP hand to call. As one OMC looker to another, you need to exploit that image. Shove the river if you're going to go with the bluff. Make it look like you had a set of queens, bet small until the river and then tried to get paid off at the end with a huge overbet.

When the villain folds and snickers at you because you played it like a donk, just make a sheepish grin and move on. It is one of the best feelings as you collect the chips that your opponents respect you even less than they did before. We're old school. We follow the Sklansky principle that you want to play such that when you get up from the table, you want people to wonder how on earth you got all those chips.

lol 5x pokers

Ya once v calls 50 on the turn, 75 just seems too small to fold out hands like the one he had.

Terrible board to triple barrel. A standard V is thinking he is beat but will call down with an A

Echo boxing this one.

In general bluffing unknowns will not be nearly as profitable as bluffing someone who you know has a fold button. Nothing sucks more than stacking off to a station, and then watch him gift your stack to the rest of the table by calling down with 2nd pair pot after pot. If I'm going to empty the clip OOP vs. an unknown I would like a bit more equity than just a gut-shot, but hitting a T is still a decent backup plan.

But it can still be done. Most villains are capable folding top pair to the right board and action. In order to get them to do this, you have to convince them you can beat top pair. One of my favorite passages in Miller/Sklansky's "No Limit Holdem: Theory and Practice" is on bluffing the turn and river. Miller makes fun of Mike Sexton constantly saying "He just made the most powerful move in poker, the all-in bet." The book counters that by saying all-in bets are relatively simple moves to respond to. The most powerful move in NL Holdem is the big turn bet with a big stack behind it, so the threat of a big river bet exists.

Here's how this bluff should have played out, in my opinion.

You make your $25 c-bet on the flop and get called, that's all fine. Then if you decide your opponent is likely on a top pair type hand, and think he can fold it, you make the big turn bet. $75 is perfect here. It's enough to get him to fold a lot of crap now, and leaves enough behind for the big river bluff. Now here is where live poker is the nuts compared to online. You get to assess his confidence when he calls. Here's a million dollar bluffing tip. I'm not sure if I've ever seen this tell discussed before, or if its referenced in literature, but I have seen it enough that I'll take it to the bank. Look for the stare down when you bluff the turn. If you get "the look" from the guy, that means he's worried. He's trying to assess if you're bluffing, which means he isn't sitting on a monster. He can be bluffed. Another big tell is what they do after you bet. If their hands go straight to their chips, then slowly and methodically cut out a call, be afraid. They likely have something big. Abort. If they hesitate before reaching for their call, they are likely thinking about whether or not to fold.

Once you've looked for any tells when they are calling, you have to make your go/no-go decision. If you don't pick up any obvious signs of strength, and it appeared they may have considered folding the turn, let it rip on the river. All-In here. In general, at least 3/4 on the river if you are going to run a multi-street bluff. They will go into the tank (hopefully). They might stare you down some more. If you've sold your story right, they aren't a station, and they don't pick up a tell, they'll look at their chips, look at their cards, maybe do a little chip dance, and then finally muck.

positions would be helpful in any hh.

this hand is total spew. Not sure what you are trying to accomplish here , making somebody fold an ace at 1/3?

That's gold. That's the biggest thing I look for when deciding to triple barrel. Sometimes Vs make it so obvious that they're not strong when they're deciding to call a turn bet.

As far as the OP goes, I've regretted trying to bluff the river in the first orbit of a new table so often I had to make a rule that I would never do it again. Generally speaking, it's a big leak.

Not to derail but to Koss' point about the stare down indicating weakness, I've heard quite a few people on this forum mention this. To my surprise I have found it to be the complete opposite over a decent sample.

The look I usually get comes after I make a big flop or turn bet. They usually turn directly to me, look me in the eyes and give me the "what are you crazy" face, squinting the eyebrows as if they are scrutinizing my line. Almost as if they are saying "what the hell could you have, it doesn't make sense, I think you're bluffing so I'm calling"

I feel like every single time I have gotten this look from a ton of different rec players they ALWAYS have a big hand that is calling almost any river bet. Not necessarily a nutted hand, but a hand that is never folding

I have like a 1-54 record against this look lol. Am I just running bad?

This is definitely a bad double barrel bluff and also a really bad triple barrel bluff.

Although this might be a different look. Because I will admit when a Villain makes a strong play and then gives me the "mean mug" "what you wanna take this outside" look they tend to be weak.

I don't get the "mean mug" look very often, it's quite rare, but that "what you crazy" look happens more frequently and is super reliable in my experience

This.

Turn and river are awful.

Just shut down after the flop imho