Apreciate any comments on a hand that came up. A new 1/2 table opened up and all
10 seats are taken. No known villains and we've been at it for 45 minutes.

Stack: 200
Hand: 65
Position: Button

Pre flop: UTG stradles for $5, and everyone flat calls to me, i decide to raise to $40/200 -> 38. All fold to 1 villain in CO - 2.

Villain is an older gentleman in his 60's and sitting on $550. Running hot. Stacked two opponents already in 45 minutes. One coolered and one back dorred a flush but always showed solid hands. Solid player. No real reads.

Flop (122) J72

Villain checks and i bet $60 -> 122. Villain tank calls.

Turn (242) J

Villain checks and i go all in, 100 -> 242.

Any comments on pre-flop raise, c-bet on flop and shove on turn appreceiated.
Spew or failed bluff?

Thanks

Villains range is probably pretty narrow here. I don't expect this to work very often, he almost always has something like aj offsuit.

you're not deep enough. Look at the odds you're offering on the turn. Plus, your killing your equity with 65ss in a 12 way pot. That's just about the perfect situation to NOT raise on the button.

The only way you get away with this is if you are deeper and you prehaps c/r Turn ... He has to be capable of putting you on exactly 77.

Just a tough spot ... he tanked a bit to try and give you credit for an overpair. You probably shouldve put him on a J with the tank-call. I think it works out for you if anything other than a J hits Turn.

You obv have no credit with anyone at table now for at least an hour or until you show down some winning hands. GL

IMO old men who tank/call are never folding at any point after, especially with you having 1/2 your stack in. Sets, J's and overpairs are a huge part of his range if he's sticking in $100 and they are going to make you show them you have the J when the board paired the turn if they have an overpair, that leaves exactly nothing you are getting to fold. Him calling $40 PF should have set your alarm bells off if he's solid as you say, him calling another $60 OTF should have killed the hand.

As for raising PF, I think it can be fine depending on stack sizes and table dynamics, but not here. You aren't deep enough to make this big of a move because if called, you are either going to cbet and have too much of your stack in (bad) or just give up if you miss the flop (again bad). Having to play fit or fold hu sucks, but cbetting and getting called puts you in a terrible spot. I think you could have probably achieved exactly what you did for a $25 PFR then you can cbet smaller and still have room to get out of the hand if you have to. The best option would have been to limp along in position with a decent drawing hand looking for a favorable flop.

lol... no.

65 suited plays very well multiway in position. I don't like the iso raise here turn bluff with such small SPR.

Haven't read other comments. IMO, putting in almost 1/4 of your stack in a table with no real reads trying to pick up dead money from a straddle, is not good. If someone who limped 3Bs, you have to throw the hand away.

As played, any decent cbet will put half your stack in the pot. Not saying the Cbet is bad as played, but we need to realize this. So when he calls his range is looking like any J, TT, 99, 88, 77; all hands that could conceivably call your PF bet. Maybe he also has two overs like AK, AQ, or KQ. He probably 3Bs AA, KK, and QQ.

As played, OTT, since you already put half your stack in, and a J comes, I have to think, "Can I make this guy fold TT, 99, and 88?" I'm thinking, probably not. I don't see how a shove helps us win the pot: He's calling with a J. I think he's calling with TT, 99, and 88. He's probably folding overs, which he would probably fold to a smaller bet anyway.

This isn't the horrendous spew I'm used to seeing in these type of threads. You had a plan and you followed through with it with a decent line. It's just kind of wrong is all.


1). We really are happy to see 65 here otb when we know the pot is going multiway. This is a better hand to have against several opponents. When I iso light (which I don't iso all that light too often) I do it with Ax or Kx.

2) Your sizing is crazy with your stack size and you're pretty much committed to ride or die otf.

3). The jack pairing is pretty much the only card you didn't want to see. Like seriously, anything else. If he called flop he's calling turn jam, even with mid pairs probably at this point.

I don't mind pf however you could probably get away w/a raise to 30 since ppl normally don't like putting lots of money in pf in a straddled pot. I'm normally calling w/your hand w/position.

otf I like the bet, you got called I'm pretty much inclined to shut it down given we are against a big stack. Most randoms w/big stacks don't fold all that often in my experience. If the pot size wasn't so big and our villain didn't have a big stack I'd be looking at betting an overcard. As it is you took ur shot and it's going to be real hard to bluff off 100 into a huge pot vs a fish w/a big stack.

We get a terrible turn card and it gets checked to us, I'm done w/the hand. Pretty much every hand that called otf loves that turn card. Sorry but you spewed pretty bad. Had I played the hand I would have lost $4.

Hey guys.

More thinking about this hand after reading your comments i still don't mind my play pf with this hand otb, CO, CO-1. i wanted to pickup the pot at that point and not so much to isolate anyone in particular. i also play SC's otb straightforward in multiway pot pre and then fit or fold on the flop. in this case i think my spew/boredom/impatience/fancy play syndrom leak kicked in.

i also still think that c-bet on that particular flop is OK. Villain would preety much need to have exactly AJ to continue or some kind of smaller pair and not putting me on an overpair. Don't see this villain calling the stradle then a raise pre with KJ,QJ,JT. At the time i also liked the J on the turn as it makes it less likely he has a J in his hand, although more likely he is calling with underpair.

My biggest spew though i think was that i haven't considered my stack size and therfore planned my bet sizes before embarking on this journey. Thanks for your comments on this aspect.

Replaying this hand with my stack size, i think i would probably A) played it straight forward. call stradle pre and then fit or fold flop etc. B) if i wanted to take the more aggro line with my stack i think i should have raised more pre-flop and then shoved that flop. i.e. raise $60/$200 -> 35 pre and then, shove 140 -> 155. i think this would have put more pressure on my villain (apart from him missing the flop obv)??? Thoughts on this.

Out of curiosity...how would you play TT or 99 in this spot (otb) and with this stack? Set mine, or pump and shove? if pump and shove what do we do on J high flop. c/c c/f?

Thanks for all your comments, keep em commin

^I read all comments etc... but haven't read the spoiler. The thing that concerns me most about this is that you still think the play is ok.... You have the perfect chance to play this spec hand optimally with best table position multiway. Raising around pot vs this many limpers to take it down pre IMO is not going to work very often. No point wasting a perfectly good hand like this with the perfect situation to just limp behind. If stacks were deeper you have more post flop FE vs certain opponents and I then find this play more agreeable.

As played I don't mind the Cbet - especially on this flop after villain has shown so much weakness, but when he calls I just give up. No way he ch/calls this flop and folds later on with pot odds on offer.

^This.
Cliffs, as played cbet good, but you have to shut it down on the turn.

Preflop raise is less than optimal with a hand that plays well multi way postflop.

just calling pre, and an easy argument for just folding since stack sizes and your limited maneuverability post flop make this a pretty difficult hand to play profitably.

ap, betting otf.

turn is the WORST card to shove, literally the worst

think about hand reading and notice there are almost zero combos of draws in your opponents range, and if he is calling with a weaker pp, why would he fold ott for such a great price after calling otf?

and the majority of his range actually improved ott. spew

Turn was a definite spew. Preflop was so bad. You had a nut or bust sort of hand with $5 to get into a big pot on the button.

yea as played turn shove was a spew. pre-flop i agree this play may not be optimal or "text book" type but i don't mind it at all. It would be preety predicatable if i played the same hands the same way in same spot

as played (disregarding limp/call pre gettting it multiway etc) what would be a good turn card to shove on (or give up completely ott) Would shove on the flop be better/worse?

Thanks for comments

You left yourself with no good turn cards due to your preflop and flop sizing. K or Q might work, but then again they might not. IF you're going to do this with your stack sizes, it needs to be a two street shot.

^thanks spike. yep agree. Stack size considerations + bet size planning and hand reading.

It's ok that you "Don't mind" the pf play. It's still bad. Not caring about making -ev plays isn't likely to make you a big winner. One poster stated earlier that there is a good argument for folding pre, and he was correct. You start the hand with a 40bb stack, and a hand that isn't going to get a flop in loves very often. With an spr of 3.9 (assuming the blinds come along) there's no wiggle room postflop, and you will face plenty of sticky situations when you flop a draw.

Don't worry about advice for the hand "As played", it should never be played this way. The way you played it so far isn't really an acceptable form of mixing it up. Why should fellow posters devote time and energy to telling you how to further screw up your hand, when it could all be stopped if you just took the sound advice of never playing it like this again? Attempting what is essentially a three street bluff in 1/2 with shallow stacks is suicidal and definitely a leak.

Flatting pre here by default -- no reason to inflate pre with mediocre hand, likely will go through unraised multi-way which is ideal for our hand strength

btw this is a total spew

^i am NEVER folding here pre this hand otb for $5 in a 1-2 game with a stack of $200, and going 8way.

don't agree with you that i should never play this hand this way again, but agree that my bluff attempt was not properly planned and horribly executed. (though this would all be irrelevant if V didn't connect with the flop for example)

You do have to mix your hands up a bit, agree. But when ideal situations for hands occur IE someone shoving preflop into your AA, someone c/r you when you have top set with no draws OTF, the table giving you great odds to hit a set or draw preflop, you can't and shouldn't mix your play up.

You have great odds and great position during the hand. I'd definitely just call this (even though the other posters are right, it's only a 40bb stack) and play fit or fold. There are much better situations than this to play fancy or bluff. And yes, the turn card is the absolute worst card in the deck to represent. He isn't calling the flop bet with nothing on such a dry board. And if he didn't raise at any point, he doesn't have an overpair or a set. So he clearly has a Jx.

^good point

Total utter spew the entire hand...... You literally got the worst turn card in the deck to continue betting with ott. Not to mention you flop c bet is too big considering you stack size. If your going to do this Just shove flop, the whole point is to have fold equity and you just don't have any on the turn.

your only 40bb deep, so raising after a string of limpers with small scs and getting a caller is pretty much going to be a committing play.

even if you call you only have an SPR of about 4 which isn't ideal for scs, but agree that you shouldn't often be folding this pre