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Old 02-17-2021, 08:13 PM   #1
HomelessPizza
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Speech play from loose rec

V is a 30s Mexican guy; fairly loose pre and overplays post; eg saw him bf bt and bet and snap call a jam OTR with AT on AJJ-7-T (1k)

5/5 700 eff
2 limps
H btn 35 KcKs
V in sb and limper call
Flop 964ddh (110)
X x, H 75, V says “wow 75?” And calls, HU
Turn 4h (260)
X, H 200
V says “send me home” and jams

Without the speech play I am calling this without much thought vs this guy. Can we ever make an exploitative fold here since that kind of talk is almost always nutted?



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Last edited by HomelessPizza; 02-17-2021 at 08:30 PM. Reason: Suits added
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Old 02-17-2021, 08:14 PM   #2
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

Grunch from title alone: Speech from a rec is almost always the perceived nuts.

Ok, off to read post.

Post grunch edit: Your suits didn't come through, but with a paired board and a "send me home" speech, this is a fold even on a rainbow board.

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Old 02-17-2021, 08:58 PM   #3
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

Easy call based on hand history as shown. If he’s snapping AT there then KK is way ahead. Maybe even a high five the dealer spot.
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Old 02-17-2021, 09:55 PM   #4
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

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Originally Posted by HomelessPizza View Post
Without the speech play I am calling this without much thought vs this guy.
then why did you bet 200 into 260 ott?

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Originally Posted by HomelessPizza View Post
Can we ever make an exploitative fold here since that kind of talk is almost always nutted?
You can make the fold even without the speech but when he said "Wow, 75?" red flags should have gone up in your head and you could have slowed it down. You can either bet smaller like 135 and then decide if you wanna check back the river, or check the turn and hopefully he makes a reasonably sized bet otr (if he leads out).

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Easy call based on hand history as shown. If he’s snapping AT there then KK is way ahead. Maybe even a high five the dealer spot.
The context of both hands are very different, in the first hand he was calling an all-in, but in this hand he was the one jamming. Maybe the guy he called earlier had a lot of bluffs in his range, who knows. But I wouldn't base a call only on him calling with an ace earlier.
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Old 02-17-2021, 11:22 PM   #5
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

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then why did you bet 200 into 260 ott?



You can make the fold even without the speech but when he said "Wow, 75?" red flags should have gone up in your head and you could have slowed it down. You can either bet smaller like 135 and then decide if you wanna check back the river, or check the turn and hopefully he makes a reasonably sized bet otr (if he leads out).



The context of both hands are very different, in the first hand he was calling an all-in, but in this hand he was the one jamming. Maybe the guy he called earlier had a lot of bluffs in his range, who knows. But I wouldn't base a call only on him calling with an ace earlier.

I am going for stacks OTR with the turn bet sizing since that turn is a great card

The hand earlier just displays how he overplays and doesn’t even realize that the T OTR did not improve his hand.


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Old 02-18-2021, 01:37 AM   #6
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

Telling OP to not bet turn is really results oriented. Like the bottom card pairs and a 2nd flush draw hits. Not sure how much more reason we need to bet.

I’m not finding a fold here. I’ve seen players give the same song and dance with strong but non-nut hands that they just go with. And they sometimes have TT-QQ and flat the sb because live poker. If he shows us a boat, nh, hope we get there


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Old 02-18-2021, 08:31 AM   #7
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

Snap call, he can easily have an overpair or 9+fd
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Old 02-18-2021, 11:55 AM   #8
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

His speech on the flop is as relevant as his speech on the turn. Why bet the turn to gii and change your mind only because his "speech play" continues?

After the "Wow, $75," I check the turn. If I continue, especially for almost pot, it's because I don't plan to fold.
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Old 02-18-2021, 03:02 PM   #9
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

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Telling OP to not bet turn is really results oriented. Like the bottom card pairs and a 2nd flush draw hits. Not sure how much more reason we need to bet.
How is that being results oriented when I don't even know the results?

The whole point of this hand, and the discussion thereof, is a rec player "reverse hollywooding" by displaying actions or words to indicate he has a monster hand. There are certain tells or handreading skills that warrant when someone with only a one pair hand should slow down and be happy getting to showdown with two streets of value. It's just like if you jam the flop for 500 into 200, and the next guy says "Wow why so much?", then jams himself. Why would you wanna get $700 in by the river with a one pair hand in this particular case? His c/r jam ott only confirms it. Of course he can show up with other random hands, but in my experience about 85% of the time or more we're toast.
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Old 02-18-2021, 03:16 PM   #10
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

Call but yea speech play me a bit scared.
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Old 02-18-2021, 03:30 PM   #11
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

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How is that being results oriented when I don't even know the results?

You know he got raised all in. That’s a result in of itself.

Like if OP didn’t tell you his action on the turn and the resulting response from villain, what would your advice have been?


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Old 02-18-2021, 03:42 PM   #12
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

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You know he got raised all in. That’s a result in of itself.

Like if OP didn’t tell you his action on the turn and the resulting response from villain, what would your advice have been?


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it wouldn't have changed at all what I said, that's why I asked the OP why he bet close to pot ott after that speech. After the speech I'm trying to get to SD as reasonably as possible without going broke.
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Old 02-18-2021, 03:51 PM   #13
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

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How is that being results oriented when I don't even know the results?

The whole point of this hand, and the discussion thereof, is a rec player "reverse hollywooding" by displaying actions or words to indicate he has a monster hand. There are certain tells or handreading skills that warrant when someone with only a one pair hand should slow down and be happy getting to showdown with two streets of value. It's just like if you jam the flop for 500 into 200, and the next guy says "Wow why so much?", then jams himself. Why would you wanna get $700 in by the river with a one pair hand in this particular case? His c/r jam ott only confirms it. Of course he can show up with other random hands, but in my experience about 85% of the time or more we're toast.
+1
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Old 02-18-2021, 04:23 PM   #14
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

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it wouldn't have changed at all what I said, that's why I asked the OP why he bet close to pot ott after that speech. After the speech I'm trying to get to SD as reasonably as possible without going broke.

Seems incredibly pessimistic. We’ve already seen very hard data that this dude overvalues hands; no good player would ever get stacked with AT on AJJ-X-T as a bet flop, bet turn, bet call river without either being against a pure maniac or being a maniac themselves.

Yes speeches can be scary, but we are near the top of our range and lose to relatively few combos.


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Old 02-18-2021, 04:40 PM   #15
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

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We’ve already seen very hard data that this dude overvalues hands
I don't consider the previous hand anywhere near very hard data. Like I said it's a different situation. Maybe he called with a bluff catcher, people call rivers with ace high too. It's not nearly enough for me to decide to go broke with a pair of kings for $700.00 against him.
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Old 02-18-2021, 05:25 PM   #16
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

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I don't consider the previous hand anywhere near very hard data. Like I said it's a different situation. Maybe he called with a bluff catcher, people call rivers with ace high too. It's not nearly enough for me to decide to go broke with a pair of kings for $700.00 against him.

Okay well he speeches flop and check jams turn. Means he was strong then and strong now. That means he doesn’t have 96 anymore (we beat it anyway) and doesn’t have 4x.

So realistically it’s 99, 66, 44, 94, 64. Even huge fish aren’t playing 94o or 64o at a high frequency. And if they’re playing 64s, they’re playing 75s, 53s, 87s, and all sorts of other stuff that they decide “f*** it let’s gamble”.

We exploit on the margins first. We don’t throw our entire strategy into an exploit bucket and never bet turn without a full house. And given the range of hands we’re worried about, taking your strategy to a logical conclusion, we’d even check behind 66 (after all he gave a speech and now we lose to 44).

Yes speeches are strong. But we have KK on 964-4. We are strong here as well.


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Old 02-18-2021, 05:34 PM   #17
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

no way I´m folding here. If he decides to gives us the speech play with the nuts, congratulations, nice hand, reload.
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Old 02-18-2021, 06:27 PM   #18
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

Prior to 2013ish fish made legit lengthy speeches

Now in 2021 we’re allowing 5 words over 2 streets to coerce our actions?

Omg he spoke!
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Old 02-18-2021, 06:39 PM   #19
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

Come on dude. Check/shove/"send me home" has been a huge alarm bell since no-limit first started being spread. He might as well have got up from his chair and started putting his coat on.
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Old 02-18-2021, 06:47 PM   #20
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

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Come on dude. Check/shove/"send me home" has been a huge alarm bell since no-limit first started being spread. He might as well have got up from his chair and started putting his coat on.
Even then Im calling
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Old 02-18-2021, 08:07 PM   #21
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

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no way I´m folding here. If he decides to gives us the speech play with the nuts, congratulations, nice hand, reload.
I know KK is a very big hand pre, the second best premium hand. But when you're betting post flop and getting called, you may wanna think about getting to showdown more reasonably instead of going broke (not to mention 200 into 250 ott will often fold out hands we beat). When the guy crai ott, he can most likely even beat 4x (no reason why OP can't have A4s pre and he's prob aware of that). And I don't need a speech to play the hand for what it's worth and not over play it anyway. You should be playing big pots with big hands, and smaller pots with small hands. It's one of the most elementary aspects to being a winning player.

We still only have a one pair unimproved hand postflop vs a guy with a very wide range pre so we can't discount any of the two pair combos or sets. I know for some players kings is a very hard hand to fold, especially when you get married to them. Having a fold button isn't easy (or even slowing down the betting/skipping a street), in fact it's hard, but it will def make or brake you in the long run that I can assure you but don't give up, you'll get there some day with hard work, study and dedication. ; )

.

Last edited by Playbig2000; 02-18-2021 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 02-18-2021, 08:38 PM   #22
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

^ Sorry but that’s an awfully terrible post with lol condescending tone

4x pairing the board ott is a great card for a big hand (not small) vs a weaksauce range

There’s little reason up to that point to go much smaller than $200.... whether we want to fold to his c/s is another thing
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Old 02-18-2021, 09:12 PM   #23
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^ Sorry but that’s an awfully terrible post with lol condescending tone

4x pairing the board ott is a great card for a big hand (not small) vs a weaksauce range

There’s little reason up to that point to go much smaller than $200.... whether we want to fold to his c/s is another thing
I'm not trying to beat up on anyone but the only problem is when we bet big ott, we're almost committing ourselves (I'm not betting 200 to fold). I'm not saying if he min-raises 145 I'm folding, but I think we can do better by betting smaller ott or vs certain villains we can even check to get a free street in and let him lead out otr with ace high or turn his missed draw into a bluff.
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Old 02-18-2021, 09:19 PM   #24
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

Of course the speech is super scary, the problem here is that there are some hands like qq he can think are the nuts. Have to get it in here fir all the reasons jdr said
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Old 02-18-2021, 09:44 PM   #25
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Re: Speech play from loose rec

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Of course the speech is super scary, the problem here is that there are some hands like qq he can think are the nuts. Have to get it in here fir all the reasons jdr said

Heck he could have the ole 69 and not realize that he was counterfeited vs overpairs.


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