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Old 04-19-2011, 05:25 PM   #1
Percula
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Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

Since Black Friday there have been a ton of new traffic in this forum and many posts in this forum and others asking about live play.

So here are some tips for all you new to live players.
  • DO NOT talk start at the table. While many recreational players don't not know much about real poker strat doesn't mean they are deaf and stupid, don't teach them at your and everyone else's expense.

  • Be friendly, don't be the hoody wearing, iPod blasting ahole that is anti-social at the table. Live poker is a social game, many (most?) recreational players are there for social reasons or it plays a major factor. I.E. why would you want to come to a place where you are berated, ignored, shunned or made fun of? Keep the game fun and happy, defend the fish if someone picks on them.

  • Learn the mechanics of the live game. Learn the rules of the room you are playing in. Remember unlike OL every room has their own rule set. Things can a do vary from room to room. E.g. in many rooms 1/2 bet will reopen the betting in a NL game. Some rooms have strict betting lines. There are lots of little "gotcha" things that the live angle shooter and rules nits will pound you for.

  • Kick back your first few sessions, get a feel for the place and the game(s) you are going to be in on a regular basis.

  • Pay attention! Besides the radical difference skill one of the big reasons live can be more profitable per hand is all of the extra information available to you. OL you don't know if someone is drunk or got in a fight with his GF or got fired from his job. You never see the guy that tanked in LP to the EP raise, finally fold and then roll his eye when the flop comes 667. Never have the guy on your right lean over and say, wow and show his cards before he mucks and then tells you why he played it that way. You will not have a HUD if you used one, but you are a walking talking HUD, so pay attention and as your sample size increases you will see patterns and tendencies to be exploited.

  • Get to know the staff, especially the floor and dealer staff. Make friends, tip well. Remember in OL poker the rules of the game are hard and fast and enforced by a unfeeling, unthinking set of code. In a live game dealers and floor staff enforce the rules. So what I am getting at is not to bribe the staff, but rather let them know you and like you, as you are much more likely to get a correct and favorable ruling if they like you than if they can't stand you. The dealer can save you or screw you all with in the rules and so can a floorman. Also if you play higher or higher from time to time, having a floor man or brush that will call you/txt you when a good game is starting for a friend or even for a tip can be very very profitable.

  • Be humble and gracious when you take their money! Be nice when they put a bad beat on you. Being nasty, rude, condescending is a sure fire way to get everyone at the table to hate your guts. You want the other players and the staff to like you. You will get more action if you are liked, they will go easier on you when they have the nuts, and you may even get invites to even juicier private games. Aholes never get invited to private games unless there is a another motive, e.g. they are rich spewmonkey.

  • Respect the other players. You will see all kinds in a live game. I have played 1/2 NL with millionaires and bums trying to get enough for another 40. I have played with people that are not functional mentally and some of the smartest people. E.g. I played 3/5 with a guy for years, he always showed up looking like your classic red neck, faded jeans or tattered shorts, tee shirts or grease/oil stained button ups. He didn't talk much, but I finally got to know him. Turns out he was super rich, invented some of the most popular tech on the internet today, has his PHd and is super smart. Bottom line just because someone plays 1/2 NL badly doesn't mean they are not very smart and successful off the table.

  • On private games... A couple of rules of thumb I live by. I never take a lot of cash with me to a game I have never been to before. If the stakes are fairly high I do not want to bring cash at all, but settle up with the host after. I have a high tolerance for non standard "things" but if I see or feel that something is not right I politely excuse myself from the game, never to return again. Trust you gut. I get "the hairs up my neck up" when something suddenly changes, e.g. the game is normally 2/5 and suddenly tonight its going to be 25/50. Ripoff artists are not beyond running a real game for weeks to make one big score. I prefer games in someone office/home or country club than some warehouse or strip mall blacked out store front.

I would invite other experienced live players to post most tips and thoughts and new to live players to ask questions.
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Old 04-19-2011, 05:35 PM   #2
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

All good points.

An additional difference live vs online:
Straddling (UTG posts 2xBB and gets to act last preflop) is common, as far as I know you can't do this online.
Be aware that a straddle can turn a 100BB buyin to 50BB and be able to adjust to that strategically.
Also watch players who straddle, some defend/raise their straddle vigorously and others are passive.
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Old 04-19-2011, 05:54 PM   #3
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

Great post percula,

My tips for you online players. Are stay away from low buyin capped games. Don't even try not worth the headache regardless of how many fish. Stay away from games that play like a 40 or 50 cap.

You can also read mattmoore post in las vegas life style form. His post covers 2/5,5/10 and now 10/20, multiple stories about bankroll management,taking shots, moving down and adjusting.

Good luck to all the online players.
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Old 04-19-2011, 06:14 PM   #4
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

This is worthy of being stickied for a while.

A couple of old threads in the micro FR COTWs that are still applicable.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...e-play-600893/

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...quette-606094/

Last edited by venice10; 04-19-2011 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 04-20-2011, 02:56 AM   #5
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

- Don't wear a Pokerstars shirt!
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Old 04-20-2011, 03:50 AM   #6
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

Here is another COTM that is related https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...layers-774846/
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Old 04-20-2011, 01:40 PM   #7
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

And this from over in B&M:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27...-easy-1021276/
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Old 04-21-2011, 07:40 AM   #8
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

A little -EV can pay huge dividends; in other words... DON'T BE A NIT AND PUT ON YOU'RE FCUKING STRADDLE (IT'S YOUR TURN!)
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Old 04-21-2011, 02:48 PM   #9
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

I geuss if you've never chopped the blinds playing online,
you may want to do it.
but consider that having a no chop policy will tilt a lot of ppl, and if you're the better player, why give up those blind vs. blind situations that are so yummy??
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Old 04-21-2011, 02:50 PM   #10
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

Quote:
Originally Posted by global virus View Post
I geuss if you've never chopped the blinds playing online,
you may want to do it.
but consider that having a no chop policy will tilt a lot of ppl, and if you're the better player, why give up those blind vs. blind situations that are so yummy??
Because depending on the room, the rake structure may not make it worthwhile.
I also don't think it tilts that many people.
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Old 04-21-2011, 03:04 PM   #11
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

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Because depending on the room, the rake structure may not make it worthwhile.
I also don't think it tilts that many people.
Be aware of the rake structure (time or rake and if rake what percentage and cap) where you're playing and how it effects the profitability of the game as a whole and what style is best. This is particularly relevant if you have access to private games and underground clubs, where the rake may be high enough to make the game essentially unbeatable.

Agreed on the straddle stuff, being friendly and what-not too. If you want to get invites to juicy private games (the holy grail of live grinding, imo), you need to be likable and action oriented if you want the fish to ignore the fact that you seem to keep winning.

Table/Game Selection is everything. If you're not at a live 5/5 or lower game where at least half the table is horrendous, find a new one. This is especially true in larger card rooms where you have lots of options.
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Old 04-21-2011, 04:55 PM   #12
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

Quote:
Originally Posted by global virus View Post
I geuss if you've never chopped the blinds playing online,
you may want to do it.
but consider that having a no chop policy will tilt a lot of ppl, and if you're the better player, why give up those blind vs. blind situations that are so yummy??
One final chopping comment. Most live players don't get upset about not chopping if you are consistent.
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Old 04-21-2011, 05:44 PM   #13
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

I know it was mentioned in OP but i think it is worth saying again. DO NOT LOSE YOUR COOL IF SOMEONE PUTS A BEAT ON YOU!!! Generally casino's are very forgiving but i have seen people 86'ed indefinately for repeatedly causing a scene after a bad beat. Also i don't think that anyone mentioned the minor point of: If its not automatic at the casino you can ask for a reduced rake if the game is short-handed atleast you can in NV.
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Old 04-21-2011, 05:55 PM   #14
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

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I know it was mentioned in OP but i think it is worth saying again. DO NOT LOSE YOUR COOL IF SOMEONE PUTS A BEAT ON YOU!!! Generally casino's are very forgiving but i have seen people 86'ed indefinately for repeatedly causing a scene after a bad beat. Also i don't think that anyone mentioned the minor point of: If its not automatic at the casino you can ask for a reduced rake if the game is short-handed atleast you can in NV.
+1. Act like an adult. No matter how well you play, **** happens. Move on. If the other player is really that terrible, you will get your chance at him, assuming you keep the game friendly and him happy.

On asking for reduced rake, just beware that old man coffee next to you may lose his mind if you ask for a reduced rake and they tell the table that means no BBJP.
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Old 04-22-2011, 10:18 PM   #15
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

Quote:
Originally Posted by iLikeCaliDonks View Post
Great post percula,

My tips for you online players. Are stay away from low buyin capped games. Don't even try not worth the headache regardless of how many fish. Stay away from games that play like a 40 or 50 cap.


You can also read mattmoore post in las vegas life style form. His post covers 2/5,5/10 and now 10/20, multiple stories about bankroll management,taking shots, moving down and adjusting.

Good luck to all the online players.
Hey I know this has been a common topic of discussion but being an online tourney player, I'm not familiar with some of the nl cash concepts.

In this case, I don't know the technicalities/theoretical reasons behind staying away from the 40cap.


I understand one reason is high variance in 20bb games but could the reg. posters expand/link to some reasons on staying away 'regardless of how many fish', Obv. the fish is plenty in the socal casinos for 40nl.

Also, I noticed in other thread it was mentioned, commerce has a 60nl which plays a bit better, any other suggestions? I'm just trying to build some br before moving to 80nl and so on.
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Old 04-23-2011, 04:34 AM   #16
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

Just too add my two cents (or pence as a Brit). The transition for players coming from an online background can he hard. Their belief that having been 24 table grinding for x years that playing 1 table will be simple and they will pick up on everything and soulread. Live play is a very different game in my experience, there is no standard "reg" per say, every player has their own quirks and style, take the time to study and get to know them.

To smooth the transition as mentioned above, get to know the rules and procedures for playing live and take advice respectfully if you make a mistake, don't argue with the dealer if he tells you your one chip "bet" is a call unless announced etc, this will not endear you to the players. A lot of the time you will be walking into peoples places of work or social circles, they won't appreciate someone causing a fuss and interrupting their play.

Additionally +1 to everything above, solid advice.
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Old 04-24-2011, 08:33 PM   #17
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

Wtf is 60 and 80nl live? Are you talking about the least amt u can buy in? Ive never seen anything less than 200nl live anywhere

Second that about berating and teaching players. Youll see alot of well liked regs that are just bad and have huge exploitable leaks. They will think they are awesome at poker and talk up a big game, basically just be friendly and reassure Their ego
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Old 04-24-2011, 10:08 PM   #18
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

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Wtf is 60 and 80nl live? Are you talking about the least amt u can buy in? Ive never seen anything less than 200nl live anywhere
Not to pick you BWillie, but if you are going to play live, you have to learn the terminology. The only place in the world that I know of that refers to a game by the max buy-in is SoCal with their crazy capped games, e.g. 1/2 NL with a $40 cap. And frankly if they didn't have several 1/2 games there with different caps they would refer to them as 1/2 NL or 2/5 NL and so on.

Live NL/PL games are referred to by their blinds, e.g. 1/2, 2/5 not by their max buy-in size. Live limit games are often referred to by their BB only, e.g. the 80 game would have 40/80 blinds.

Also caps vary wildly depending on the room and area. Many rooms adopted a 100BB cap because that is what the n00bs to NL wanted after playing around on PS and FT when the boom got to rolling. Before the boom it was nearly unheard of to cap a NL/PL game or any game for that matter.
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Old 04-25-2011, 12:03 AM   #19
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

And yes, sadly 1/2 with a $40 MAX buy-in actually exists. Really, 20BB cap.
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Old 04-25-2011, 06:52 AM   #20
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

Quote:
Originally Posted by approx yards View Post
Hey I know this has been a common topic of discussion but being an online tourney player, I'm not familiar with some of the nl cash concepts.

In this case, I don't know the technicalities/theoretical reasons behind staying away from the 40cap.


I understand one reason is high variance in 20bb games but could the reg. posters expand/link to some reasons on staying away 'regardless of how many fish', Obv. the fish is plenty in the socal casinos for 40nl.

Also, I noticed in other thread it was mentioned, commerce has a 60nl which plays a bit better, any other suggestions? I'm just trying to build some br before moving to 80nl and so on.
Generally, the rake is ridiculous. Something like a $5 dollar drop per hand at least.
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Old 04-25-2011, 11:00 AM   #21
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

In Detroit, the casinos refer to the games by their buy-in range. For example, 1/2 is usually called 50-200 and 2/5 usually called 200-500. I haven't seen that anywhere else though.
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Old 04-25-2011, 12:19 PM   #22
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

I think a # preceeding the "nl" is an online thing for the most part (example: 200nl.) Like someone posted earlier generally casinos only list the blind structure (example: 1/2nl, 1/1/2 nl, 2/3nl, etc...) but many if not all games will have a capped buy-in. normally something like "100-300 or matching of the biggest stack", in my neighborhood.
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Old 04-25-2011, 03:22 PM   #23
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

Quote:
Originally Posted by Percula View Post
Not to pick you BWillie, but if you are going to play live, you have to learn the terminology. The only place in the world that I know of that refers to a game by the max buy-in is SoCal with their crazy capped games, e.g. 1/2 NL with a $40 cap. And frankly if they didn't have several 1/2 games there with different caps they would refer to them as 1/2 NL or 2/5 NL and so on.

Live NL/PL games are referred to by their blinds, e.g. 1/2, 2/5 not by their max buy-in size. Live limit games are often referred to by their BB only, e.g. the 80 game would have 40/80 blinds.

Also caps vary wildly depending on the room and area. Many rooms adopted a 100BB cap because that is what the n00bs to NL wanted after playing around on PS and FT when the boom got to rolling. Before the boom it was nearly unheard of to cap a NL/PL game or any game for that matter.
Oh, I know live players go by 2/5 1/2 5/10 etc. It's just the way I classify it I guess. I've played probably about 100,000 live hands, so I'm not a online only guy. Most games I've ever seen for NL are 100bb bi cap, so I just list it by 300nl, 200nl, 500nl, 1000nl. For the internet guys like me

Those 40bb cap games sound really stupid, but probably very beatable. I've never seen them, but I've never been to Cali either yet.
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Old 04-25-2011, 04:12 PM   #24
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

Quote:
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Those 40bb cap games sound really stupid, but probably very beatable. I've never seen them, but I've never been to Cali either yet.
If I remember right there is a $6 drop, not rake in those games, i.e. $6 goes down the **** hole before any cards hit the flop. So in a $40 capped game, at 25/hr 3.75 buy-ins are being removed from the table per hour. It has to be pretty hard to beat a game where the house has a much higher expectation of earnings than the players.

Having watched these games, they tend to become a lotto. People start out playing tight because everyone knows you are AI on any hand you play, then they get bored, frustrated, etc and start open pushing with much lower requirements. It becomes a very high variance game, which frankly if I am going to play in a high variance situation, I would rather do it for something more significant than $40.

The end result is that these low capped games remove a significant amount of the skill element of the game, is bad for the game in many ways. Remember skill is demonstrated by choices. If you remove 3 out 4 chances to choose better than our opponents, it becomes much more of a luck game. Remember that most states that have legal poker do so because someone has successfully made the argument that in poker skill dominates luck in the game. These lotto styles games diminishes that.
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Old 04-25-2011, 05:58 PM   #25
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Re: Some tips for the OL players coming to LLSNL games

are we even considering a 20bb cap raked game as a way of making money at poker? i can't take that seriously
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