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Old 05-24-2015, 01:14 AM   #1
DaYu
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Snowmen melting in the river

$1/2 NL Underground

Stacks $300 eff.

Villain: Around 30 years old, Eastern European wearing hoodie. Knows the dealer by name. Definitely not a fish.

Hero: 25 years old, playing pretty tight. Villain hasn't seen me VPIP a hand (we've been at the same table for less than a dozen hands).

Hero raises to $10 from UTG with 88

Villain 3bets from CO to $25.

Hero calls.

Flop ($45)
9 K 4

Hero checks, villain bets $30, hero calls.

Turn ($95)
K
Hero checks, villain checks.

River ($95)
3
Hero checks, villain bets $45.

Hero?
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Old 05-24-2015, 01:33 AM   #2
TTBH240
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Re: Snowmen melting in the river

Being OOP against a competent player is not a situation I like to be in. It's enough for me to fold to the 3-bet pre. But why are you calling the flop? It's the second time I'd find a fold in this hand. I'll guess V had either AA or maybe QQ.
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Old 05-24-2015, 01:52 AM   #3
The Rumor
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Re: Snowmen melting in the river

In would fold flop before I would fold river given the preflop actinon
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Old 05-24-2015, 02:30 AM   #4
bobman0330
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Re: Snowmen melting in the river

What is your raise/calling range Utg at this table?
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Old 05-24-2015, 03:29 AM   #5
kekeeke
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Re: Snowmen melting in the river

Hero c/r 155. Punish that thin value bet. He probably doesn't fold AA for 155 but I think he has JJ-QQ very often.

You could make it 195 and he probably folds everything but Kx and nines if he even 3bets your UTG open with 99
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Old 05-24-2015, 03:36 AM   #6
Meatloaph
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Re: Snowmen melting in the river

Definitely folding the flop!!! We're calling the flop oop hoping he gives up on turns? Seems a bit weak with out some kind of read.
AP I'm folding.. we're beat and a bluff raise represents nothing to a reg
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Old 05-24-2015, 05:54 AM   #7
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Re: Snowmen melting in the river

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman0330 View Post
What is your raise/calling range Utg at this table?
It depends on who is 3betting, and what the sizing is.

In this situation, vs. this opponent and a $25 3bet over my $10 open, I'm never folding a hand I open UTG with.

In other words, I'm opening 77+, AQ+ UTG, and I'm not folding any of those hands to a 3bet in this particular spot.
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Old 05-24-2015, 06:18 AM   #8
CRAIerrday
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Re: Snowmen melting in the river

Quote:
Originally Posted by kekeeke View Post
Hero c/r 155. Punish that thin value bet. He probably doesn't fold AA for 155 but I think he has JJ-QQ very often.
There is no difference between JJ/QQ and AA in this spot for villain
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Old 05-24-2015, 07:03 AM   #9
bobman0330
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Re: Snowmen melting in the river

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaYu View Post
It depends on who is 3betting, and what the sizing is.

In this situation, vs. this opponent and a $25 3bet over my $10 open, I'm never folding a hand I open UTG with.

In other words, I'm opening 77+, AQ+ UTG, and I'm not folding any of those hands to a 3bet in this particular spot.
I think I would fold this hand on the flop. You need to fold about 22 combos on the flop to be balanced, and AQ seems like a better continuing hand than 88, as it has more outs if he has a pair and still beats no pair hands.

AP, this is a clear fold unless you have AK or sets in your checking range, which I don't think you should. If you do, it might be a good bluff candidate.
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Old 05-24-2015, 07:40 AM   #10
BackDoorFlush
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Re: Snowmen melting in the river

Seems like a pretty trivial check fold, on the flop.
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Old 05-24-2015, 07:55 AM   #11
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Re: Snowmen melting in the river

It is a pretty trivial fold pf. Anytime you use the word "never" to justify an action in poker, it is mostly a mistake. It is difficult to get value out of a non-fish when oop with a set.

As for the rest, calling the flop means you think he's got air. Calling the river bet is spew but since you're on this path, you might as well go for the megaspew and shove.
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Old 05-24-2015, 02:47 PM   #12
Samball49
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Re: Snowmen melting in the river

I think you fold pre here.
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Old 05-24-2015, 03:17 PM   #13
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Re: Snowmen melting in the river

grunch

I think our hero's best play is to call pre and check/fold any flop that they don't flop huge on. This also means when they flop an overpair too.

Getting almost 20-1 to call pre..I think it's ok to be setmining here. Villain should be on a pretty tight 3betting range vs. your utg + the nonzero chance you can check it down for the win. That said, in this particular spot, I am going to be check folding here unimproved and folding pre in similar spots until I have a read. Playing check/guess vs. an unknown regular isn't necessary.

I also like a call because you get to see their betsizing and betting patterns early on in a session in a spot that doesn't come up that often. From here, you are on a good start to understanding how the villain assigns ranges and reacts to them. You should be able to quickly determine if they can bet thin for value, bluff vs. shown weakness.etc etc And be that much better prepared to pick a really good spot.
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Old 05-24-2015, 03:35 PM   #14
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Re: Snowmen melting in the river

the pot amounts are incorrect? i think the extra 15 is a little loose preflop but if our villain isn't firing c-bets heads-up a lot it's ok. In your case "definitely not a fish", I would assume he does c-bet most flops. I guess 77 is the absolute bottom hand I'd call pre with but it's close.

Flop is a clear check/fold.
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Old 05-24-2015, 03:48 PM   #15
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Re: Snowmen melting in the river

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatloaph View Post
Definitely folding the flop!!! We're calling the flop oop hoping he gives up on turns? Seems a bit weak with out some kind of read.
AP I'm folding.. we're beat and a bluff raise represents nothing to a reg
It's not a horrible float. A competent V will sometimes read hero as having KQ/AK/99/44 in this spot and give up if he can't beat AK. The turn makes trying to make a better hand fold dicier, but you should be considering leading the river if you check-call the flop.
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Old 05-24-2015, 03:53 PM   #16
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Re: Snowmen melting in the river

forgot to sub this thread...nice thread. nice hand posted. Venice makes a good point and I don't like being OOP here. Am I ever folding pre in real life? who knows

EDIT: even IP we can make more money if we hit our set vs lls non fish im guessing. Well, I have a plan anyway. which includes raising flop betting riv big or raising riv

Last edited by tmacTheorySSAnne; 05-24-2015 at 03:57 PM. Reason: ip vs oop
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Old 05-24-2015, 10:37 PM   #17
DaYu
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Re: Snowmen melting in the river

I tanked and folded river.

I think folding PF is ridiculously weak, but whatever.

My plan for c/c flop was to lead some turns to fold out TT+, as well as overcards with decent equity, such as AJ, AQ, etc.

BUT when the K rolls off on the turn, I think I have to go into check-down mode, because getting this guy to lay down JJ+ on a KKxx board seems like suicide.
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Old 05-25-2015, 04:26 AM   #18
daniel9861
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Re: Snowmen melting in the river

Call pre is fine.

C/f flop.

C/f river.
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Old 05-25-2015, 08:24 AM   #19
DaYu
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Re: Snowmen melting in the river

Quote:
Originally Posted by spooner90 View Post
the pot amounts are incorrect? i think the extra 15 is a little loose preflop but if our villain isn't firing c-bets heads-up a lot it's ok. In your case "definitely not a fish", I would assume he does c-bet most flops. I guess 77 is the absolute bottom hand I'd call pre with but it's close.

Flop is a clear check/fold.
This is counter-intuitive to me.

The fact that he c-bets a lot means that he is c-betting some air, which means that we are actually ahead of a non-zero percentage of his range.

I'd be more inclined to c/f versus a villain who DOESN'T c-bet very often.
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