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Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

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Old 05-21-2014, 01:29 AM   #1
bobncsu325
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Slow play or shove turn?

This is a live home game, $1/$3, with a live button straddle of $6.
Main Villain ($330) is friend of Hero and is loose/semi-fishy/calls wide-range pre/post-flop. Villain also opens wide-range in late position. Hero is perceived as solid TAG and has a stack of $450.

Straddle/Button is game host and plays solid/tag at his game and has around $430.

Dealt to Hero in BB AhAc

6-Handed
Preflop
SB Folds, Hero Calls Straddle, UTG Folds, Seat 2 Folds, Villain Raises to $18, Straddle Folds.

Hero Raises to $38, Villain Calls


Flop (Pot: $83)
Ks10s4s

Hero BET $50, Villain Raises to $100, Hero Calls.

Turn (Pot: $183)
8h
Hero Check, Villain BET $90. Hero?

At first, I was a little concerned about my hand, but after analyzing the hand further, I concluded that any made flush would probably have just called the flop. I'm narrowing his range to KQ/JJ/QQ/AJ/AK and him holding a spade. So now I want to get stacks in, and I'm thinking that Shoving prob folds out QQ/JJ/AJ and prob KQ. AsK calls turn shove. Or do I call Turn, hopes the River bricks and villain fires third barrel? Does QQ/JJ/KQ fire again as played?
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Old 05-21-2014, 02:32 AM   #2
wj94
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Re: Slow play or shove turn?

$65 pre, limp raising to $38 is bad. If you're going to announce that you have AA then at least set up an SPR where you're going to stack off regardless. Just shove turn, he only has $100 left anyway. If you had raised more pre this wouldn't really be a decision.
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Old 05-21-2014, 08:40 AM   #3
QuadJ
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Re: Slow play or shove turn?

Yes, if your going to limp/raise then raise bigger because your hand is face up. I would pop it to at least $50 and might go deeper if the other limpers have big stacks.

In this sort of situation with a low SPR, make your decision on the flop when he raises. Either he flopped a set and you should fold, or just go ahead and shove then to charge draws. Anything else is exploiting a particular villain's bad play, if villain will bluff off here then calling down isn't terrible. I don't like this particular board for it though because there are so many potentially bad cards.
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Old 05-21-2014, 08:56 AM   #4
bwslim69
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Re: Slow play or shove turn?

Wow pre sizing is terribad, flop I prob just go with it against described villain. 65 pre, shove over min raise. A lot of fish play Kx this way
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Old 05-21-2014, 09:34 AM   #5
bobncsu325
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Re: Slow play or shove turn?

Villain is known to open a very far wide-range of hands pre. (I've seen him open Q5o, 103s, 98o, K3o). The game was nearing towards the end as a few players were calling "last round" or "leaving in 15 min." I was afraid by making too big of a re-raise pre, villain would fold if he was indeed opening w/ his usual garbage. I thought by only making it $20 more, he'd call w/ all his garbage hands, and his higher end range in which he would open (AK/AQ/QQ/JJ/1010/AJ) he might even 4bet.
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Old 05-21-2014, 10:13 AM   #6
Javanewt
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Re: Slow play or shove turn?

How often have you limp/re-raised? If you do this often to such a small amount, then it's OK. If not, it's terrible. Either raise straight off or c/r to a "normal" amount. Unless you make this play often, Villain probably knows you have AA or KK (maybe AK w/ As if he doesn't have it or QQ). He doesn't seem too worried. Too late, though -- time to shove. If you are lucky, he has the As and misses.

I agree with the others that you should have set this up so the money goes in on flop or very easily on turn.
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Old 05-21-2014, 10:15 AM   #7
dean327
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Re: Slow play or shove turn?

Quote:
So now I want to get stacks in
You wrote the answer in the OP. As played, snap AI.

I don't hate the PF raise to disguise AA, but prefer a bigger bet.

On the flop, I hate leading $50 into a pot of $83 with three spades on the board. I would lead $100. Shove on any non-spade turn.
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Old 05-21-2014, 10:16 AM   #8
QuadJ
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Re: Slow play or shove turn?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobncsu325 View Post
I thought by only making it $20 more, he'd call w/ all his garbage hands, and his higher end range in which he would open (AK/AQ/QQ/JJ/1010/AJ) he might even 4bet.
The small raise will get called wide, but a 4 bet would be pretty rare and specific to the history between you and villain. The problem with doing this is that you have announced to everybody that you have a good hand. Now you have to play this OOP with a fairly low SPR in a situation where villain isn't going broke with just one pair unless they are terrible. Your just inviting villain to call with garbage, flop two pair+ and stack you because you can't get away from your over pair.

This ends up being the sort of bad pot builder that looks like it makes money but is -EV in the long run. You win more slightly larger pots, but you get stacked when things go bad. You have to win that extra $20/$30 a lot to cover the times you get stacked for $200+.
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Old 05-21-2014, 10:52 AM   #9
Mr_Doomed
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Re: Slow play or shove turn?

I don't like limp reraising and I defiantly don't like the sizing. You are giving him perfect odds to come along. Also flopped flushes should be raising if they want value from the hand. I don't care for this spot at all, I am likely either fold to the flop raise or getting it in on the flop. We are likely a small dog vs any combo draws or we are drawing dead.
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:12 PM   #10
gobbledygeek
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Re: Slow play or shove turn?

I'd probably just open to ~$35 if that sorta raise can get called in a straddled pot (which it can at my 1/3 NL table). We're basically targetting the fishy friend and getting him to put in 10% of his stack preflop, where we can then commit postflop. As played, I dislike our reraise size as it offers good implied odds of 18x to stack our perhaps face up hand; I would have made it $65ish which offers a lot poorer implied odds (and yet our fishy friend will most likely call the raise cuz that's what he does).

The SPR on the flop is like 3.5. Even though it is monochrome and we don't have a draw, I feel committed against a guy who could still pay off postflop with non-nuttish hands. We obviously hate another flush card falling, so I would pot the flop in order to shove the turn. As played, I would have shipped over his raise. What's our plan with just calling? It creates a $283 pot with just $192 left and we've already shoved in 1/3rd of our stack, lets's just do this thing now. In the end, we basically created a small SPR pot where we have no room to escape postflop and thus have to commit, but I hate that we offered the villain such good implied odds preflop to crack us since we are committed.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 05-21-2014, 09:54 PM   #11
venice10
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Re: Slow play or shove turn?

The first thing to get out of your mind is that on a monochrome flop that you want to slow play an OP.

The SPR is 4:1 on the flop. I like the bet on the flop but as soon as you're raised, you've got to decide whether to play for stacks or fold. Under the circumstances, you've announced you have AA already. It is a mini-bet. He really doesn't expect you to fold. I'm a believer in Mike Caro's theory that if an opponent wants you to do something, disappoint them. I'd fold and move on.
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