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Old 05-19-2018, 11:44 AM   #1
f0xr
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Sizing question in 4-bet pot 2/5

I'm wondering about my sizing here.

2/5 1300 effective

Villain is a tag pro. We play together often. I have had a tight image all night, but the previous hand I open and double barrel into two people with a gutshot, and show. I'm planning to leave in two hands, but I haven't said so.

I open utg1 to 25 with KdKc. Two fish call in mp. Villain raises on the button to 125. I 4-bet to 300.

Maybe could have sized a little bigger? Villain is an aware player, and definitely capable of 3-betting and continuing with a reasonable range. I usually size my 4-bets about 2.5x, which seems slightly small here.

One of the fish is a station, and is probably never folding to the 3-bet, so I don't expect villain to really be 3-bet bluffing here at all. I also don't hate if the fish calls, which he actually might do sometimes.

Ends up folding to the main villain, who calls. When he calls, I expect his range to be partial tens, jacks plus, AK, maybe some AQ suited and occasionally KQ suited.


Flop (650) JdTd6s

I have 1000 behind, villain covers. What should my sizing be, and what's the plan for different turn cards? Especially if he calls and a Q comes off.
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Old 05-19-2018, 12:19 PM   #2
Joey913
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Re: Sizing question in 4-bet pot 2/5

If villain is a tag pro and has played with you a lot what do you think he thinks your 4 betting range is here? I don't think I necessarily play these spots great but I feel like with this sizing and this deep we've turned over our hand as either AA or KK (maybe AK) and given him reasonable (albeit not great) odds to set mine. I think I would prefer to flat or 4bet/fold to $400.

As played horrible flop as we are only ahead of AK/QQ.
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Old 05-19-2018, 12:56 PM   #3
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Re: Sizing question in 4-bet pot 2/5

I dont think he really 3bets TT/JJ vs an UTG tight open vs what he deems a competent player. These are purely set mining hands especially with 2 fish in the mid. QQ is up there, is is AK, which he probably flats a 4bet with, and maybe the occasional balanced bluff with like AQo or JTs or something. I'd cbet 150 or 200 just to give him room to make mistakes. Dont think I can find a fold no matter what he does.
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Old 05-19-2018, 04:39 PM   #4
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Re: Sizing question in 4-bet pot 2/5

I think you can size up with $200 in the pot already, to 400 or so. He's getting a pretty good price to call IP.

Flop isn't terrible, you block nfd and can stack mostly likely hand of QQ.

Standard cbet of 350-400 is fine.

AP, even if a Q hits turn you are drawing to the nuts in a massive pot getting odds.
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Old 05-19-2018, 05:41 PM   #5
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Re: Sizing question in 4-bet pot 2/5

I'd probably 4b a little more to like $350 or $375. First thought is with that 4b sizing he will probably call with entire 3b range. I think V's 3b range should depend a lot on whether fish is deep or shallow. If deep he can definitely squeeze pretty wide. What was fish's stack size?

Against his described ranged in your post you have approximately 50% equity. I don't think this part matters so much given SPR but I guess I just b/c it off. 4b pot with an overpair vs a 2/5 pro what else can you do?
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Old 05-20-2018, 08:29 AM   #6
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Re: Sizing question in 4-bet pot 2/5

Both fish were also deep, at least 1,500 plus.

I thought it was a decent flop, since he has a lot more combos of AK, QQ, and maybe a few AQ, KQ than hands that are ahead.

I'm giving him maybe 1 TT, 2 JJ, 3 AA if he even flats that half the time. That's 6 total combos that are ahead.

Hands I'm beating would be all 6 QQ, all 8 AK, and maybe 1 each of AQ and KQ. That's 16 combos I'm targeting.

I don't think QQ can fold to one bet, so I definitely want to size for value there. I'm wondering if I can size so that AK should also call once.

How much should he be calling with AK? I bet 375, wondering if I should size down some.
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Old 05-20-2018, 09:02 AM   #7
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Re: Sizing question in 4-bet pot 2/5

with a 1/4 PSB you probably get looked up by AK, you def get called by QQ/KK and AQdd which is fine. Probably get raised by all the hands that crush you, so if he just flats we should be in good territory. If I bet 1/4 on the flop then I 1/2 pot turn that way he's getting like 5:1 to make a crying call on the river, or on occasion I might do something spastic like jam the turn just so he calls it off with all of his draws in the rare event he actually 3bet us light, which is why I also like your smaller 4bet sizing because I dont necessarily want him to fold all of his equitable hands against us pre. If he has 67dd or something then **** it, I'll give him a decent price to call pre with that.
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Old 05-20-2018, 09:26 AM   #8
Avaritia
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Re: Sizing question in 4-bet pot 2/5

Check a lot and the other times bet small. Like $220

$300 pre is fine. Wouldn’t go higher than $350.

If he calls a a queen comes off we are checking and depending on his sizing we are folding most of the time.
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Old 05-20-2018, 06:35 PM   #9
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Re: Sizing question in 4-bet pot 2/5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Check a lot and the other times bet small. Like $220

$300 pre is fine. Wouldn’t go higher than $350.

If he calls a a queen comes off we are checking and depending on his sizing we are folding most of the time.
Not a fan of checking a lot or betting small on this fairly coordinated board. Are you expecting a TAG villain to spew off bluff in a 4bet pot? We miss out on a ton of value by checking and allow a free card.

If a Q hits, how can you check fold to any size (you block AK, and you are drawing to the nuts)?
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Old 05-20-2018, 07:30 PM   #10
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Re: Sizing question in 4-bet pot 2/5

Dont want to write an essay but in 4bet pots when Q-T cards flop (esp 2 of them) we are at a huge range disadvantage as the 4better bc we have few if any QQ and no JJ/TT. Meanwhile these are the most likely holdings of a decent tag when he 3bet/calls.

The hands we are ahead of (AK/AQs) have like 7 outs max. They also fold (correctly) when we bet.

Its a 4bet pot, so we dont really fear any card but an A. Even then, only 3 of the aces are terrible since we have the Kd.

To be clear, we are checking to maximize value range vs range on a poor texture, not out of fear.
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Old 05-20-2018, 08:21 PM   #11
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Re: Sizing question in 4-bet pot 2/5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Dont want to write an essay but in 4bet pots when Q-T cards flop (esp 2 of them) we are at a huge range disadvantage as the 4better bc we have few if any QQ and no JJ/TT. Meanwhile these are the most likely holdings of a decent tag when he 3bet/calls.

The hands we are ahead of (AK/AQs) have like 7 outs max. They also fold (correctly) when we bet.

Its a 4bet pot, so we dont really fear any card but an A. Even then, only 3 of the aces are terrible since we have the Kd.

To be clear, we are checking to maximize value range vs range on a poor texture, not out of fear.
This post is nicely put. I have a hard time in these spots so this helps me out. One thing I still don't get is if V is deep with us and a fish in position, I suspect he can 3b light, and I don't know if any of his range folds to this small 4b. If he can have suited aces and some suited connectors, does this affect our flop decision here?
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Old 05-20-2018, 08:31 PM   #12
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Re: Sizing question in 4-bet pot 2/5

Preflop: I'd probably size my 4bet slightly larger like $330, only because we're deep-stacked and OOP. If we were something like $1000 deep and IP, then $300 would be fine for a 4bet.

Flop: We have 2 options here: we can either check the flop or we can Cbet small like $200. We don't want to Cbet so large when the SPR is only 1.7 and ranges are so narrow. Try to think what you would do with AK here. Are you the kind of player that always Cbets AK here or do you check instead? You should aim to play your KK the same way.
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Old 05-20-2018, 08:50 PM   #13
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Re: Sizing question in 4-bet pot 2/5

Villain definitely has a nut advantage here (he has 6 combos of sets), but we should have a range advantage (our overall range has more equity than villain's range). There are some cards we need protection from (Q and A, mostly A), so that favours betting, but it's tough to get stacks in against QQ here by betting, and pretty much impossible to stack anything other than exactly QQ, so that favours checking. There's an argument for both.

All I'll say is that, whichever decision you choose on the flop (either bet small or check), the most important thing is that you check all turn cards except a K. Do not try to barrel a brick turn in the hopes of stacking QQ. This isn't going to happen unless villain is a massive whale.
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Old 05-21-2018, 01:11 PM   #14
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Re: Sizing question in 4-bet pot 2/5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Dont want to write an essay but in 4bet pots when Q-T cards flop (esp 2 of them) we are at a huge range disadvantage as the 4better bc we have few if any QQ and no JJ/TT. Meanwhile these are the most likely holdings of a decent tag when he 3bet/calls.

The hands we are ahead of (AK/AQs) have like 7 outs max. They also fold (correctly) when we bet.

Its a 4bet pot, so we dont really fear any card but an A. Even then, only 3 of the aces are terrible since we have the Kd.

To be clear, we are checking to maximize value range vs range on a poor texture, not out of fear.
The above is textbook 4! pot postflop strategy and thinking process. End thread.
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