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Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+? Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+?

11-30-2018 , 11:36 AM
Hero (CO): Very aggressive image. Is not afraid to 3 barrel bluff when he senses weakness. Usually plays in position. Probably perceived as a little spewy by villain. I usually try to tighten up my range a lot when I play against him. He is aware of that
Villain(BB): Very good LAG player. Is very aggressive postflop and reads people very well. Most of the times he is the winner in any poker room he goes. I've played with him a lot of on different poker rooms. He usually reads me very well and tries to bluff me out of pots when he senses my range is not strong. We have history on a lot of levelling wars

OTH
Blinds are 1-2. Hero has 450 and villain 190 starting the hand

Middle position random guy limps. Hero raises to 10 with AK
SB and villain on the BB call
Flop(40) QT3

SB checks, villain bets out 18. Hero thinks for a while and decides to float with 2 overs and a gutshot.

Turn(76): 4
Villain thinks for a while, and bets out 19.

I start thinking that he is not that strong because if he had AQ, KQ, QT, TT, QQ he would bet out much more than just 1/4 of the pot. Even monster draws like J9, KJ of would probably bet 1/2 of the pot or more even if he is OOP. I decide he is drawing for a flush draw, he probably has a weak Q or JT, T9, T8 type of hands

I decide to raise shove the turn putting him all in. Is this play profitable?

Last edited by luz4ggro; 11-30-2018 at 11:37 AM. Reason: text
Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+? Quote
11-30-2018 , 11:51 AM
How about: he thinks I'm spewy and is making a weird bet to induce?
Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+? Quote
11-30-2018 , 11:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
How about: he thinks I'm spewy and is making a weird bet to induce?
It might as well be. But I'm more inclined to think that he is trying to see a cheap river
Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+? Quote
11-30-2018 , 12:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by luz4ggro
OTH
Blinds are 1-2. Hero has 450 and villain 190 starting the hand

Middle position random guy limps. Hero raises to 10 with AK
SB and villain on the BB call
Flop(40) QT3

SB checks, villain bets out 18. Hero thinks for a while and decides to float with 2 overs and a gutshot.
Why is V donk-betting? It's not something I would expect out of a typical "very good LAG" so I think you should have spent more time analyzing this street.

Have you seen him donk before? What does he usually donk with?

How would you play an overpair here? How about top set? You have to tell a credible story if you're going to bluff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luz4ggro
Turn(76): 4
Villain thinks for a while, and bets out 19.

I start thinking that he is not that strong because if he had AQ, KQ, QT, TT, QQ he would bet out much more than just 1/4 of the pot. Even monster draws like J9, KJ of would probably bet 1/2 of the pot or more even if he is OOP. I decide he is drawing for a flush draw, he probably has a weak Q or JT, T9, T8 type of hands

I decide to raise shove the turn putting him all in. Is this play profitable?
Shoving is terrible here. He could easily be betting to induce.

If you think he is drawing, then why not just call? You're ahead of his draws.
Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+? Quote
11-30-2018 , 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by luz4ggro
It might as well be. But I'm more inclined to think that he is trying to see a cheap river
So what do we have against a cheap river? We have ten outs, 3 of which are to the nuts, and he's offering us a great price.
Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+? Quote
11-30-2018 , 02:26 PM
Call flop call turn
Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+? Quote
11-30-2018 , 04:21 PM
Agree with call flop and call turn. We are seeing a river for "free" when we have A high. Nothing wrong with that.

However, if you live read is that he's weak and will fold better than A high, by all means raise him out.
Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+? Quote
11-30-2018 , 05:53 PM
No way we can help you with leveling war. Just make sure your on a higher level.

Not shoving, would rather raise to $80. But that is spew with our current hand. Take the turn, and evaluate river.

If your 90% sure he is drawing (I tend to agree). I actually don't mind a shove.

Done the same with similar spot. Felt bad showing Ace high for winner. When I went back and went through hand. I didn't like it. But in bad spot with likely best hand.

If he bets river on brick. Likely still have to call and hope he didn't pair.
Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+? Quote
11-30-2018 , 06:23 PM
i don't like it because turn is such a blank many queens might find a call here.
Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+? Quote
11-30-2018 , 06:40 PM
You apparently know this guy pretty well, so you should know what range he has when he plays a hand like this.

I wouldnt make a move like this without a good read because I want this highest success rate possible and I know the players in my room very well. Using population reads (meaning what most players would have and play this way), a shove is going to have a ton of fold equity. I think your FE is lower due to your history with this guy.

Summary....I dont hate it.
Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+? Quote
11-30-2018 , 07:18 PM
I think the flop call is going to tip the villian off, what do you raise with pre that check/calls this flop? if I was villain i would expect all AA/KK/AQ would be betting here.
The turn is a brick and this small bet could mean a few things he is weak or he wants to induce you spazying out.
As you and the villian have lots of history, people on here cant really judge the leveling wars too much.
If you shoved I think villian would be able to call off with Qx here a lot maybe even strong Tx.
I would be interested to know people view's on raising the donk bet on the flop as I think this could be a intresting play.

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Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+? Quote
11-30-2018 , 07:44 PM
We never checked winadil. We are IP and V donked into us. Villain’s don’t donk/fold in this spot so raising just commits us to shoving turns which usually leads to us getting called.

That’s why raising with a value hand is great. The exploitative adjustment is to use position to your advantage. Having the BDNFD is all the more reason to call.
Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+? Quote
11-30-2018 , 08:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
Villain’s don’t donk/fold in this spot so raising just commits us to shoving turns which usually leads to us getting called.
Depends on the V. I know quite a few who love to donk any pair here for "information" and will definitely fold if raised.

That being said, I agree that shoving the turn is definitely spewy.
Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+? Quote
11-30-2018 , 10:27 PM
Call flop call turn

He’s going to hero with Qx very often and weaker pairs cuznit looks like “you have AK”
Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+? Quote
11-30-2018 , 11:40 PM
Yeah missed read the flop action, I think a call flop/call turn is probably the best line, you are getting a pretty decent price on turn and as othrr have mentioned can see getting called off by Qx a lot here

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Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+? Quote
12-02-2018 , 11:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by krilleater
Why is V donk-betting? It's not something I would expect out of a typical "very good LAG" so I think you should have spent more time analyzing this street.

Have you seen him donk before? What does he usually donk with?

How would you play an overpair here? How about top set? You have to tell a credible story if you're going to bluff.



Shoving is terrible here. He could easily be betting to induce.

If you think he is drawing, then why not just call? You're ahead of his draws.
I'm ahead of his draws, but he could also be betting with Tx or Qx (weak) and would probably bet the river. Calling with A high on the river is not a good play IMO. Better push him out before the river
Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+? Quote
12-02-2018 , 11:28 PM
Villain thinks for a while and calls the turn

Spoiler:

Villain thinks for a good while and says: "I'll just gamble this hand" and calls with J8. River goes a blank and I win the pot

That call is really odd, he is not really a gambler. I think he got a little tilt because we had been playing against each other the whole session and he was stuck
Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+? Quote
12-02-2018 , 11:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
So what do we have against a cheap river? We have ten outs, 3 of which are to the nuts, and he's offering us a great price.
I have fold equity by raising on the turn. And my read is that he is not that strong to call me off
Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+? Quote
12-03-2018 , 12:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by luz4ggro
I'm ahead of his draws, but he could also be betting with Tx or Qx (weak) and would probably bet the river. Calling with A high on the river is not a good play IMO. Better push him out before the river
His Tx or Qx might bet the river, but then you could simply fold. There's no guarantee he will try to bluff the river if he misses his draw (especially since he hasn't been telling a credible story of strength) so you can check it back and win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luz4ggro
I have fold equity by raising on the turn. And my read is that he is not that strong to call me off
Sounds like your read was way off since he called you with J-high.

It worked out this time, but I still don't think you accomplished anything with your shove. Maybe getting value from flush draws?
Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+? Quote
12-03-2018 , 04:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by luz4ggro
I have fold equity by raising on the turn. And my read is that he is not that strong to call me off
Apparently you dont if he’s calling ofd J high.

If you have everything figured out why post this hand for advice?

Turn shove is clearly pretty bad but if you know everything dont ask for our help
Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+? Quote
12-03-2018 , 04:30 AM
Fold flop. No reason to float a good player with just a gutshot. His range is wide open here and it's harder to get paid vs good players when we do bink. If this was a weak player who is only betting the flop with a made hand then we can float and hope to hit our gutshot or a heart on the turn or just some indication of weakness from the villain in order to steal the pot.

Vs a weak player I do like a raise on the turn (no need to shove).
Shoving in the turn with gutshot. Is this play EV+? Quote

      
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