Effective stack sizes around 280bbs

UTG opens for 3bb, decent player, plays online/live tournaments with success and understand the game quite well.
UTG+1 3-bets to 12bb
Hero 4-bets with KK UTG+2 to 35bb

folds to UTG who 5-bets to 100bbs, UTG+1 folds.

Can we fold here? I haven't once in my life seen a live player 5-bet preflop with anything else than Aces or Kings. I've seen 5-bet all-ins with worse hands when the stack sizes were 100bbs, sure, but not a 5-bet to 100bbs with another 180bb behind.

OTOH, I have an aggro image, I was "caught" 4-betting KQof, AQs etc in the past and the opponent is a capable player as well.

Can we find a fold here?

if there's ever a spot to 4b/f KK, this would be it
can also call the 3b with your range if you don't want any 4b bluffs, JJ+,AK looks reasonable

I prefer 4-betting here, I don't want to play multi-way UTG+2, cold calling a 3bet will invite players in position to the pot if they wake up with some suited connectors or pocket pairs

Overfolding is one of the best adjustments I've made, but it's still difficult to say goodbye to very good hands. I've learnt to fold a lot of hands correctly and it increased my winrate but in the spots where I have a really huge hand (2nd nuts or 3rd nuts) even though my gut, my reads on opponents and everything else tells me I'm beat and should make a huge fold, my curiousity gets the best of me. Or I go on auto-mode, I bet, guy raises, I snap call and don't give myself time to really think because my hand is SO GOOD.

This spot with KK has been really eating me for a couple of days, I know I'm good enough to fold here when I just calm down and analyze the situation but at the table I seem to have this mindset of "eh, if you got it, you got it, it's a bad beat, whatevs". I definitely need to work on that.

Just call the 3bet.

An UTG raise from a good player who is uncapped, sees that action behind him, and still 5-bets when it gets back to him? Yeah, I can fold this deep.

Don't include results, please. It biases responses. I edited them out.

If UTG is an online/live tournament player with succes, he can have a wider range than usual cash game players. They study alot PF situations and he could be doing that as a bluff or lighter for value. An AK also would benefit from a 5Bet PF than a flat call OOP.

Add that to you being caught 4Beting light, it’s a MUST CALL.

No way i’m folding on this situation.

If it were a typical LLNLH player that deep and with you not having this 4Bet-Showdown history I could think about a fold tho.

Im calling here solely based on the fact he caught you 4 betting KQo and he is a competent player. He could easily be doing this with AKo. I would call and get it in on any non A flop.

Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk

He's 5-betting w/ A4, easy shove dog.

But it's prob a call, I can't see folding Kings pre for 100 blinds.
I really don't know what to do if he shoves the flop. He could be doing this w/ QQs if he thinks you are getting ool. I want to say call, but I know we are getting stacked so often here. Call half the time?

What were positions the hand you 4-bet bluffed KQo? I doubt it was UTG, UTG+1, UTG+2 situation described here. Tricky spot. I don't think I can fold to the 5! given that you've been caught, but it's not a slam dunk. I am not jamming pre, that's for sure. Play post-flop.

Is this 1/3 or 2/5 (other?)? I am much more inclined to fold if 1/3 since they are terrible at adjusting to table dynamics and just think about their hand strength. A thinking 2/5+ player who remembers the KQ hand could level himself here into a 5! with AK or even QQ. Only thing weighing against this is UTG+1 (who hasn't gotten out of line?) 3!. You're saying you can beat both of them with lots of action behind you and UTG still 5! with UTG+1 left to act. The more I think about it the more I think UTG has only AA. Only because of history I'm still calling to see a flop and evaluating what he does OOP.

This hand would be so much easier (fold) if you hadn't gotten out of line earlier. Sorry, but if he had AA you kinda dug your grave this hand with the light 3! earlier.

Bolded "etc" because I'm curious exactly how many times we have 4 bet already and over what period of time. The "etc" implies it's more than just those two but perhaps those two were the only ones that were shown down? With this dynamic if you have 4 bet more than twice and shown two as light as KOo and AQs I would expect a good player to make a stand at some point. Per description, dynamics / history, V can be wider than 6 combos here. Sucks that he had AA this time but you have cultivated this image to create this spot. If you were at all worried about getting it in we should not have put in the cold 4 bet.

look at the positions and 5b size
ofc he has AA/KK every time
AK and QQ are very easy folds for him

I agree with flatting the 3bet pf and not just because you got 5bet. I know GG will be mumbling about the SPR being too high. A SC isn't getting odds to call, so you want them to call all day. A pp is barely getting the right odds and I'm not stacking off the flop with KK anyway so you deny them odds.

Of course, I'm assuming you weren't stupid enough to show your 4bet bluffs, so nobody is following it enough to know you are bluffing.

into the muck it goes

even online 6 max this is a fold

Personally I don’t think having a flatting range here is great. As long as +1 is not a nit and is somewhat active, I cold 4b QQ+, AKs and muck AKo. If he’s a tight 3-bettor I just do KK+, AKs.

If we treat his 5b as an AI, folding KK isn’t that huge of a disaster wrt MDF. Just annoying that he saw your cold 4b and there’s a chance he could be doing this light. Despite that calling and stacking off here is going to be negligibly +EV at best imo so i just fold and move on

I 4-bet KQof on SB vs CO open and BTN 3-bet.

Actually this particular player has only seen KQof and AQs.

I 4-bet wider in general because I play against calling stations which makes AQs almost a pure value 4-bet, I'll get called by KQs, AJs, most of the suited connectors and medium pairs. Have been doing it a lot and haven't noticed these players adjusting.

People in this game open a very wide range of hands and 3-bet quite wide as well. Trust me that in this scenario the 4-bet with KK isn't the problem at all, it's pure value 4-bet. Problem is really myself seeing someone 5-bet me like this first time since I don't know when and not understanding it's time to fold. Guy had Aces of course and I highly doubt he has any other hand there ever. Maybe Kings.

He definitely is a decent player, Ive seen him make great Ace high calls and applying pressure but spots like these are just very underbluffed in my opinion. Even if someone thinks they are balanced they will not 5-bet bluff preflop because why the hell make such a huge variance play when I've shown so much strength? He just went for max value and got it. You probably shouldn't even have a 5-betting range there? I'm not sure what the GTO stance is.

I made this topic to get the hand out of my head but I'm pretty sure it's a fold all day long on live low/mid stakes poker. Overthinking this scenario and trying to talk yourself into believing (as I did) he might have some other hands there is just not going to end well. Hopefully I won't make this mistake again, better to cut your losses and move on trying to find better spots to get value.

Cheers.

Kinda close but fold. If the 5-bet came from the blinds, cold, turbo-muck.

Easy fold given the 5! is from UTG into cold 3! and cold 4! from UTG +1/+2. Absolute best case scenario is him iso spazzing you with AK on a bad read of your 4!

The real question is how is he ranging UTG+1 when he goes for the value 3x 5! ? That kinda tells you what you need to know. That you are up against AA 6/7 times and KK 1/7th of the time.

I fold here and do it extremely carefully to ensure no-one sees my cards.

Sure becomes an easy fold after you know the hole cards

If it’s a 1/1 game then just ship it

Flatting the 3bet pre is just results orientated garbage (even when people claim it's not cause you got 5bet).

I don't see much merit to having any sort of flatting range in UTG+2 facing UTG open UTG+1 3bet. It's totally fine (and best/easiest) to play a super super tight 4bet or fold strategy here and KK makes it into that range.

As played facing the large sized "cold" 5bet from UTG (which imo he shouldn't have a 5bet range here 280bb deep but w/e) it's definitely reasonable to fold. It's also reasonable to call. Like Minatorr said this is a super low EV spot either way.

FWIW in a live 1/2 setting in a vacuum this is the easiest fold of your life (and theory wise KK get's folded here some decent % of the time also). That being said, live players tend to over-adjust (if they're a "thinking" player at all) when they see something like a 4bet bluff so I wouldn't be too surprised to see some AK/QQ or even ATs type hands from UTG if that's the case.

Also your 4bet is slightly too big.

Yeah big, big +1 to all of this. Live players do definitely overadjust a lot, it’s very natural to do so and this gets amplified by live dynamics

Not sure I was clear, but I meant to say that this is only slightly +EV in the best case scenario but more likely than not in this exact spot, it’s just going to be punting a good amount of $$ in EV. Long-term I do think this is a moderately losing stack off unless UTG is a complete maniac whale

Not sure how OP played the hand but yeah clearly jam is worst of three options. Imo fold >> call >>>>>>>> jam

Yeah, I made the worst decision which was jamming but I don't see much difference from calling, if I call the pot is 210bbs with 180bbs behind, only an Ace on the flop could make me fold.

Imo this is always a fold when playing this deep. If the guy has 100bbs effective and 5-bet jams then it's of course a snap call. I'm sad I only realized all of this after playing the hand. In very low EV/high variance spots I think it's actually a very good idea to not push for these very small edges in live settings, just fold and let yourself occasionally be wrong for 35bbs, not for 280bbs.

Let's even assume the opponent's range there is AA, KK and AKs. This range has 68% equity against KK.

For simplification let's say he is going all in for 100bbs with this range, we have to call 65 to win 100+47=147 and we win 32% of the time. The EV of this play is +3bbs, I don't think it's worth it.

This is not that crazy. If you did this v. a UTG open and MP 3! I think I would be more inclined to jam KK pre.

I don't think anyone will believe you are a wild man after seeing the KQo hand. The positions are what matters more than anything. I wouldn't put too much weight into this "history" as a result.