$1/3

V1 ($225) - Old man reg, gives of OMC vibe but doesn't play that way - led river in 3 handed pot on AQXXX board w/ KQ after previous action. Just standard loose reg I suppose.

V2 ($300) - Old man also, probably an ABC player, not terribly creative.

V3 ($300) - Reg, play with him a lot. Pretty loose and aggressive but certainly has a fold button if he thinks he's beat. Not a total fish, paying attention to the game. Views me as LAGgy (more so than I actually am).

H ($350) - fish on a heater

OTTH

V1 opens to $15 (standard) UTG+1, V2 calls UTG+2, V3 calls CO, H calls from BB w/ 22.

Flop ($57)
J72r

BB checks (I thought this was an OK spot to check first to act, obviously I should have led for 40-50% pot)
V1 makes it $15
V2 calls
V3 raises to $30
H didn't see the min raise coming. Obviously I can flat on a pretty dry board and expect to have the reraise called everywhere and go to the turn 4 handed. I also can 3b but the c/3b line is unbelievably strong. If I flat there'll be $177 in the pot on the turn w/ most V's having $250 behind meaning I can lead for $100 on any turn and easy-peasy shove all rivers. Of course 3b with a flopped set can't be bad either, probably make it an lol $100 or something.

H?

Make it $45. Screw with their head.

Yeah, I would have preferred a flop lead, someone is likely to have something and with V1's stack size, if he raises, someone with AJ could jam to isolate.

As played, I just call and give V1 a chance to go crazy with his overpair. If he just calls we'll still get chips in by the river and there are no cards we're afraid of. We're often up against an overpair and overplayed top pair.

Needless to say we don't fold sets with an SPR of 5:1 vs these guys - even on a dry board.

Nobody has made a serious bet yet. Time to do so. $100 at least.

I think that’s the best answer. What do you do if any of the V’s 4b shove?

=> $100 is serious bizness to these people. I don’t approve

Legit lol’ed at minclick reraise, then said hmm i like it, within a solid 2 minutes

You’ll likely be just as apt to get spitecalled by everyone for $30 vs $15 more regardless of wtf they have

Obv we lead small ott (assuming they flat)

You play with V3 a lot. What do you think the minraise from him means? If he's trying to play good, he's presumably not just randomly clicking raise buttons and has some reason for doing that (though it may not be a good one). Free card play? Info gathering? Pot building with a monster? TP trying to fold out the shoe clerks and crumb bums without bloating the pot too much? What, this thing he does, what for it is?

The flop is dry. What is V2 calling with? Does he ever raise flops? What would you expect from him with a jack?

You're crushed by 77 and JJ and way ahead of everything else. The only draws are backdoor flushes and gutshot straights. From your descriptions, I'm guessing 72, J2, and J7 are probably not likely hands (especially unsuited). There are probably about as many set combos (6, perhaps discounted) as 2P combos (6, perhaps discounted).

This is about the wayest ahead/behind situation I've seen in a while. Typically, those are good situations to play more passively. Pushing the action tends to help V's play more nearly correctly.

If things are good, you've got one or two people with a J. They'll prolly put some more money in, but even bad players can figure out that they're TP is not in great shape against your x/3b. It's not like you're getting frisky with some sort of big combo draw.

I just don't see a raise helping us build a nice pot against a lesser hand. Flatting gives V1 huge odds to call, which at least puts some more money in the pot. In typical LLSNL games, a flat here can be a J, 7, or deuce with some other feature (overcard, BDFD, suspicious player, whatever).

I flat.

I realize good players might think a flat is stronger than a raise, but these don't sound like those players. I'm going to guess they're going to think a raise is strong and a flat, even if followed by a lead on the turn, is confusing and could mean multiple things.

Whether I lead the turn or not depends on answers to the questions above.

I think raising only works better if someone has AJ and has decided to be committed now, but won't lead the turn when checked to.

Case - appreciate the commentary, you're asking the questions I asked my self in the hand. Clearly WA/WB. I assume V3 is floating w/ some equity planning to steal on the turn. He's assuming my check means I fold as I have a wide range pre and easily could have missed. I also generally lead monsters, and I assume he's seen and noted that. V3 is assuming V1 will credit him for a hand strength commensurate to a reraise without having to commit much $$ (note V1's lack of pot-to-bet sizing awareness with his lead - V3 surely saw that as well). He's also assuming the V2 is weak and shouldn't put up a lot of resistance on the turn. V3 probably accurately ranges V1 at AKx or AQs, maybe a little wider (I assume V1 is losing to KJ here) and is just c-betting because he's supposed to with no concept that it's 4-ways to the flop or that he just c-bet a 26% PSB. As far as a range V3 can have all the gutter ball draws, any J above an 8, any 2 overs along with A7 or A2 (discounted because of my set. 77 and JJ are in play for V2 but probably not V3. If V3 had a set (or a miracle J7 2p) he'd work harder to build a pot. V2 maybe has 77 or JJ, but if he does, with his image of me and my image of him, on this dry of a board I'm just going to pay the man.

As I think V3 is light, I believe a 3b here takes the pot down 80+% of the time. So I don't think a raise is going to max EV here. My thinking in hand though was that being OOP I don't think I can lead the turn and get paid and am afraid of the turn checking through, because then I have to lead river and will almost never get called. I F'd up here though because a flat makes a $177 pot going to turn and I was only really thinking about a 'reasonable' flop bet of $90+ dollars. In retrospect I wish I would have flatted the flop bet, then donked the turn for a fully ******ed $30 and let the other players lose their minds.

I think the only other really smart line here is IRT's suggestion min-raise cold 3b to $45.

As played I flatted the $30, V1 and V2 flatted as well, as expected. Turn as a Q I decided to piss money away and the turn checked through. I led the river for $70 and everyone folded.

Other than this stupid hand I played a good session (no big wins or losses, just standard LAG wins) and I won $215 in 4 hrs. I've won 11 sessions in a row for an average 1.25BI's @ 3.0 hrs / session and averaged over 12BB/hr in 2017. All of that being said, I'm on serious tilt right now for how I played this hand. It really steams me to get into a great spot like this and F it up. Apologize for the ranting but there's no reason I didn't make an additional $80-150 here. It's a leak I need to close. Seems every 2-3 sessions I hit a spot where I brain-fart like this and fail to max-value it.

Don't 3bet. Be glad the guy minraised a weak cbet. Now you can comfortably flat without necessarily coming off as superstrong.

I don't think the hand is particularly stupid. Remember the cost of a sub-optimal line (even if this line were sub-optimal) isn't the result, it's the expectation. Your line didn't work out this time, but that doesn't mean it never works, or even that it's not a fine line to take at least some of the time. I think it's pretty likely everyone would have folded to either a flop raise or a turn lead.

Part of our problem here is that our hand isn't quite strong enough to hope to cooler someone. If we had JJ or even 77, we might think about putting in a raise OTT hoping we can catch someone with 77 or 22 and stack them. Here, the vast majority of the time we're ahead, we're not getting a big pot out of it. That means we're probably going to have to check somewhere along the line and hope someone looks us up a bit light or catches up to something. We're therefore going to have to also accept the risk that someone catches a miracle to go ahead of us.

And a solid majority of the time, no one's going to have much, not going to get anything, and we're just not getting much money in the pot.

Useful example of why we need more than 8:5:1 to set mine. We'll often hit our set and still not make much.

Flat and x/RAI most safe turns.

Ok, I just read the results...no idea why turn checked through. This would generally never happen in my game after action on flop.

I think your line was fine. Based on the fact no one called river, it's clear no one had any real value in this hand.

Sometimes no one has anything to pay you off. Flatting flop is clearly the right play with 2 V's given that this board can only really pay you off with overpairs or hands that have you crushed.

Leading on the turn only has merit if you think they actually have something, won't bet, but will call. While you could lead 50, I still think c/r is the better play if they actually have a hand.

Obvious flat

Case 2 and Starpoker summed it up nicely.

Appreciate the feedback. Maybe I was being results oriented on this one. In game I was surprised it checked through on the turn. I think the table was smarter about reading my flat call on the flop then I gave them credit for at the time. Still a little surprised I didn't get some action on the river. This is all kinds of exploitable (and I do) so I guess that's the price of all the hands I win on the river with air here.

Thanks.

You sometiems call OTF with nothing here, intending to bluff the river?

I think the call OTF is fine, but I would lead small on the turn. Ideally, someone will have QJ and raise you and now you've got a bigger chunk of the stacks in.

Otherwise, you're targeting hands like AJ and KJ, gutshots and maybe 7s from real stations. KQ or AQ would not be totally out of the range of V1, I guess. He C-bets these, and calls $15 more for a big pot with overs and backdoor.

You look pretty strong, no matter what you do, so you're going to just baby money into the pot. Like less than 1/4 pot. And maybe, once in a blue moon, this causes someone to spazz.

If called, do same thing on river.

Why is leading the flop better in this spot compared to x/c or x/r given that H plays against some loose V's?

I often x/c or (depending on the players and action) x/r in these kind of spots. Could be a leak of myself ofcourse, but I would like to hear why leading here is better (is it to have initiative in the rest of the hand?)

I am new on the forum btw. Ready to post some hands soon

To build a big pot while minimizing the appearance of strength.

If it gets checked through, we're sad because we've lost a street to build a pot. If we x/r, we look strong (esp on this dry board) and give people a chance to get away from their hand.

It can also be somewhat deceptive to those people who slow play strong hands. (I remember one avuncular fellow, in shock at my ineptitude, helpfully suggesting I should never lead out with a set -- as I was scooping a huge pot built by leading out.)

It also gives us a chance to b/3b if someone happens to have a strong hand. (We're not particularly worried about set over set because we're basically resigned to getting stacked if that happens. We want to build a big pot; someone else does too. The big pot, she is getting built.)

Against aggressive (not just loose) V's, we can consider a check, but then we have to either x/c the flop and lead out the turn or hope V's will lead twice for us. Those aggressive V's may also be more likely to raise if we lead out.

b/b/b lines also provide no obvious point for V to fold (such as a x/r or call on one street, lead on the next), helping them to perhaps accidentally commit too much of their stack.

Your answer makes a lot of sense and I think I just discovered one of my biggest leaks in spots like these...

I often perceive V's as weak when they lead in a multiway flop on such a dry board. I convice myself by questioning: why would some lead their big hand in a multiway flop (=more people in the pot, so more chance of action) on such a dry board (=people either miss or hit, so when they hit they will bet = action)? For me it then makes more sense to slow play; follow the x/c line.

However, my thought process as how I would play the hand in V's case also determines how I play the set here. I think that's wrong (2nd leak).

Bets in a multi-way pot tend to be more straightforward than HU or 3-way. Bluffs are much less likely to succeed and so are undertaken less often. So someone who leads into three other people probably has what they consider a decent hand. Often that will be something like TP or better.

Please note well the use of the words "tends", "less often", "probably", "often", etc. These are tendencies at LLSNL, but not remotely iron-clad rules.

Some people habitually slow-play sets and above or even 2P and above. When those people lead out, they're tending to cap their range. (Another reason for us to at least sometimes lead out with a strong hand.)

So when someone leads out, they're more likely to be "strong" in the sense that they've hit the flop, but not necessarily looking at a monster.

As you'd expect, "it depends" gets sprinkled liberally over all of this. V tendencies vary widely, as do skill levels and ability to determine what constitutes a good hand on a particular flop.

If someone leads into you on a flop like this and you have a good jack, you should probably play somewhat cautiously. If they bet/bet/bet, there's a good chance you're not good. If they play two streets of action, maybe you are, maybe you aren't. And if they fire one bet and then shut it down, you're probably in OK shape and may even want to value bet the river yourself.

Although, of course, it depends.

Case - I agree 100% with your logic there. My plan for the hand was threatened by lol stupid (maybe genius) V bet sizes. If V1 leads for 60% PSB ($36) V2 flat and then V3 makes it a respectable $125, then I have flat and easy shove on turn or river. The lol bet sizing meant I had to expose the strength of my hand without having a properly sized pot. My fault for not leading.

Maybe I should make a different topic about further elaborating on the lines taken here, but, anyway:

What would you do on a wet/draw heavy flop in this situation? Is x/r then becoming a better option because we could also do that with our blufs? Or would you also prefer to lead (which essentially means you would lead like any flop texture in this spot)?

On the x/c and then lead turn line: could you give an example which hands (and flop textures) are suitable for this line (in this same spot) and explain the reason why this line is max EV?

To clarify: with same spot I mean the same type of V's and with the same relative positions at the table.

I would mostly lead this flop, but if it goes X/B/C/Minraise, I am calling unless I think someone is just terrible. Against these Vs, just calling for sure, though I don't mind the make it $45 idea either. (Maybe that's better, but I wouldn't have thought of it).

The first 2 will call the flop raise with almost anything now, which is pretty good. Especially AK, AQ, JT etc. i.e. hands that are drawing almost dead.

I think this, then leading small on turn and river is max EV because we are either crushed or against very week hands that will be scared of heavy action, or even average action in this scenario. But they will call very small bets "just in case." A lot of people are just embarrassed to fold to small bets or feel like the book says they have to call.

When the turn is an over, unless someone has made 2 pair or top pair now the hands we beat are just super weak. And eveb top pair is still going to be nervous. As I said, we want to trigger a raise against 2 pair.

How many chips is someone putting in with second or 3rd pair in a 4 way pot that was raised pre and OTF? Whatever the answer is, that's the amount we want to bet.

I'd mostly do this with dryer boards, since there are not a lot of good draws to target. But it's going to be based more on ranges assigned to Vs. e.g. there might be a theoretical but very unlikely open ender.

If the turn is a brick I still think you have to lead, but you can go medium/small. Now you are targeting AJ, KJ from the flop raiser, who will often check this on the turn and will even more often not bet 3 streets on his own. I still think he is going to be very aprehensive and you have to bet an amount he feels like he "has to" call, but that amount will be a little more.

You could still go small though, hoping for 2 or 3 callers.

Flat, and lead all turn cards 9 and lower

Disclaimer: This is my opinion. I'm wrong a lot. I'm a solidly winning player over a few thousand hours, but not crushing it. I have leaks, many of which I don't know I have. Opinion is offered on an as-is basis, with no warranty, including for merchantability or fitness for a particular purpose. This is not an offer to buy or sell securities.

I'd love to see other opinions.



If the flop is wet, I'm even more likely to want to lead out unless I have a good read that one or more V's will bet for me. Giving free cards to multiple opponents on wet boards when you have a strong hand is often a good way to develop some material for the BBV forum.

Yeah, my default when I flop big is to start putting money in the pot. I'm happy to let someone else do that, but only if I'm pretty sure they will. I like big pots and I cannot lie.

I think balancing should be a distinctly secondary consideration at many LLSNL games. If you're not a reg, or playing a reasonably long session with the same group of players, or the players aren't paying attention and adjusting in ways you can anticipate, there's really just not much point.

I would rarely go for the x/r multi-way on a wet flop. I'd either want high confidence someone is going to stab at it, or some good reads that V's are unlikely to have those draws in their range (based on preflop action). Giving free cards with big hands to several people on a draw heavy board isn't something I want to do without a very good reason. One exception might be an aggro player that was willing to gii with a good combo draw. If I have a set, they have much less equity than they think they do, so gii OTF is great. Unfortunately, it's not common for someone to have a big combo draw when we flop a set, just because big combo draws aren't that common.

Here, since the flop went bet, call, small raise I think there's a decent chance the turn is going to get checked around. That's no good, so I think leading out is better than checking in this spot. Normally, I'd follow a b/b/b line from the flop here.

In general, I'm not a fan of x/c flop and lead turn with value hands. I think it looks too much like you've improved on the turn, which tightens V calling ranges.

I think x/c flop, lead turn can be useful as a bluffing line (against the right V's with the right flop and turn cards, natch). It might be useful if V's will stab at flops a lot (more than they'll call), but then shut down on most turns. It might be useful against someone that has played me enough to know that I'll use the line as a bluff and so I can trap them with a real hand. (Disclaimer: I play the same people a lot and some of them are very definitely paying attention and trying to outplay me.) Or, of course, if I flop something marginal that I don't want to play aggressively OTF for some reason that then improves OTT. Mostly, I don't use it much though.