Here's hand from today's session that I'm not sure on the ranging of the villains.

It is a 1/2 game at Foxwoods. It was a brand new table when I started with everyone else, but we've now been playing for 1.5 hours. Only 2 players have left in that time. Pretty typical day game, 6 older players (several talked about attending high school in the early 1960s) and 4 younger players, all in their early to mid 20s. Only somewhat unusual feature is that virtually every hand preflop was raised by someone and the opening raises have been $6-$8. At this point, people aren't limping much because of the raises.

Hero has his usual OMC/Nit image for most of the table. I've been down as much as $90 and had been topping off. Most pots haven't gone to SD, but recently won a big one on the river when I called down to the river and a FD hit on the river. The villain in that hand checked, I bet out and took the pot. I didn't have the flush on that hand. Hero is sitting with $320 at the moment.

Villain 1 is a recent arrival to the table. He's either a senior in college or a recent grad with a UMass t-shirt on and a light jacket over it. His girlfriend showed up a couple of hands ago and is watching. Bought in for $100, basically limping and folding to a raise frequently pf. The vibe is that he's played poker before, but not often at a casino. Just has a slight noob feel to him. He has $79 in his stack.

Villain 2 is about 70 (he's one of the ones talking about being in HS in the early 60's). He's directly to my right. He asked for the seat change button right at the start of the table. He's been chatting with another OMC to my immediate left. I've kept things friendly. He's aware of the worst tables in the room (the ones right by the doors where the smokers congregate and continually open the door bringing in cig smoke and cold air). He's got his chips stacked in 20s. He's been limping a lot, but has "adjusted" by just calling more raises. He bought in for $300 and has about that now.

V1 limps in the UTG+2, another person limps and Hero is in the CO and sees Q J. I raise it to 12, V2 calls on the BTN. V1 calls, other villain folds.

Flop comes Q T 9. V1 checks. With initiative, TP and a straight draw, I feel I have enough to bet at it and make it 25. V2 snap calls and V1 shoves. It is back to me. A call is 42 more.

What does Hero do next?

I'll let you know what my thoughts were at the time later on.

Seeing anything from V2 that says he's calling or folding? Like chips in hand or disgust?

I'd look for tells from him after the shove. Probably gonna fold since the 70-year-old 'snapped' your bet and, well, he's 70.

He's probably never raising, though, if you call.

Tough spot.

Why $12 preflop? I would tank call and study v2 when it is his turn. I think I would bluff a lot of turn cards that hit your perceived range if v2 hesitates on the flop

Just call

Anyone like a minraise to $84 more?

gotta raise methinks

pre is burning money imo

I think this is a call. Assuming OMC on the button is going to play mostly straightforward, if he just calls the $42, I'd be planning for a value turn bet on any brick turn card. If he re-raises our call here, I'd give him credit, I think I'd be willing to risk being bluffed out of this pot by just calling the short-stack shove. Though this hand really warrants some closer range analysis.

Uhhhh, pre is not burning money lol.

I think raising is probably the play. You didn't really say much about how OMC has played. IF he came over the top I guess you could fold assuming he's old and not aggressive at all.

But I'm guessing you really want us to range them...

I don't like a min raise

OK, well, you have a 40BB stack limping in early position, and you are only at the CO and pretty far behind with this hand, and partially committed to the shorties stack. Think this raise and sizing when an EP shortie limps is pretty bad. I'd go with the table standard of 6-8 pre if I felt like playing and sometimes just limp behind. UTG+2 is not deep enough to raise him to 12 with this hand. Lets face it, this kind of table never sees a light 3bet so you aren't losing much going 6-8 pre and I would also limp behind short stacks because they tend to want to get it in light and there is often no reason to raise IP

it's definitely a raise now because old men always raise if they are already there and they don't play KJo much

everything looks good to me so far.

I think you can go about it 2 ways, call and look to use the board as your friend and take OMC off his hand later or raise/fold now.

the problem w/ the first is you'll be oop, betting into a dry side pot against OMC. I think I'd prefer raising small, $92-$95. This should be enough to iso V1, who I think your doing pretty good against.

If OMC jams, you have to fold as this is made straights, (TT) only. If he would flat, now there is money in a side pot to contest and I would be betting any spade,8,K, maybe A's as I think his flatting range is sets and 2 pair only.

I don't see OMC calling a raise from you w/ any draw what so ever. I think he always shoves straights, and I think he can fold 2 pair a lot as well. He could shove over w/ sets sometimes, still I don't think you have odds to draw to your oesd if he does anyway.

I think their both draw heavy fwiw. OMC raises his sets the first time more often then not. I like the small iso raise, get rid of coffee and fade the spades.

Pre is obviously good for fat value. Those wanting an overlimp likely play in very passive games. In the game dynamics described, you are 1) ahead of their ranges, 2) will be able to take a nice pot on the flop whenever your one or two callers miss (usually if one, often, if two), and 3) can play for stacks when we hit big and V's hit medium.

FWIW, I play in games where this is often an overlimp, as the V's are l/c better hands and if we do hit gin, it's easy to get stacks in in a limped pot. This is not one of those games, though.

AP, flop bet with TP+SD on a wet board is also good. As for ranging V's, snap call from OMC is usually a draw. It is likely a NFD, as bare SDs and lower FDs will often think about folding for a few secs and strong combo draws will think about raising often (though with OMC, this is not necessarily so). Shorties range is wide here. He has few sets, as he l/c pre. He has a ton of pair plus draw and two pair hands.

Next action: Pot is 153ish (not sure of rake, but I assume it eliminates the blinds and maybe the limp/folder). We're getting 3.6-1 with TP and an OESD. We are obviously never folding, and anyone advocating it has either ranged OMC redic strong on this wet board, or just doesn't math. We only need 21.5% equity HU, and even less if OMC comes along.

I like a raise, as OMC is also getting redic odds to call his draw heavy range. Make a raise that implies a turn shove, and then actually shove all non-spade turns, imo.

Garick nailed it, imo.

What I was thinking at the time.

I'm not going to fold QJo pf in late position with no show of strength. That said, it isn't a limping hand. It only ahead if a villain is playing 50% or more of hands. The result is that I pretty much have to hit the hand to win in. I'm not going to hit it that often and if I do, I'm usually not winning much if ahead. Therefore, it is a raise. I've got a tight image and this allows me to exploit it.

As for the amount, I'm not looking to win the limps and blinds. There's way more value in getting at least one call pf and take it down on the flop if I miss with a cbet. At this table, $12 is a reasonably sized raise with two limpers. Bombing it by making a $20 bet or so just guarantees that I'll only get called by hands that are going to be sticky on the flop. Beyond that, there are three players behind me. If someone 3 bets, I'm going to be folding 99% of the time.

My thoughts on the villains was that neither of them had a monster. The board is super wet. A set or straight is never just checking or calling. They have to be concerned about a FD. I was surprised by the c/rai by V1. There just wasn't a holding that made much sense other than a FD. I'm less certain about V2's range. He's either got a FD or something that has a decent chance of being ahead.


Results.

I tanked for about 10 seconds. I called, which is a mistake after reviewing the comments in this thread. I needed to make sure V2 folded and a good sized raise would make that much more likely.

As played, V2 tanks for about 30 seconds. He finally talks himself into a fold.

The board plays out with a J and A. V1 announces two pair. I say I have two pair too and turn over my hand. V2 says, "damn it" and says he folded AQ. V1 gets ready to muck and decides to show his hand anyway. He's holding T 9. Just before he puts his cards in the muck, another player tells him to stop, he hit the flush.

I'd tell the fish he won as well. ;-)

OK, I don't like pre unless they play really bad, which I guess they are since they don't re-raise you light ever and you are pretty much never being exploited. I don't like raising a short stack limp from EP, but it can be profitable if they are playing 9To on 40bigs

when v2 just calls the flop, he's never on a really strong hand for that board, and he's leaving himself a fold range, and we aren't at all upset when we get it in with v1 with the overlay he's provided

I'd go a little more than 100

I'm surprised all the normal "fold pre" goons didn't come itt, probably your mod-repellant.

I think the flop is a must raise situation. We are lucky V2 called, but given that we raised PF, then bet OTF and flatter a raise our image is a stronger holding than TP.


I hope this player was cautioned. Sure he may have been about to much the best hand, but if he doesn't see it he doesn't see it. Not our problem, or another player's to point it out. Dealer can of course, but not another player.

I don't think this is necessarily a fold pre. I wouldn't mind it considering shortie is the only limper with a 79 stack... I could skip this hand. I like raising if there is a fish in the blinds who is likely to call with any money invested. Otherwise if I'm entering I am probably limping. Not worried about going after shorties stack with QJ. I tend to not play with anyone who's stack is under $150 unless I have top tier hands. Not even worth going after. If I raise light and they happen to call then so be it but I don't like isoing a $79 shortie with QJ

OMC hand smells like a draw or a medium strength made hand. I don't think he ever takes this line with 2 pair+ on this board with 3 players. I like raising when shortie ships to get OMC, who might have the best of it, out or charge him and put him to a tough decision with his draw. This is the classic spot where we can fold out some better and get called by worse

I'm not sure about this etiquette question actually. I know that in most tournaments it's the player's responsibility to point out dealer mistakes. Is this not true in cash games?

Um, no. Roberts Rules of Poker: Showdown, Rule 1: Showdown two cards to win. Rule 2: Cards speakd. Rule 3: " Any player, dealer, or floorperson who sees an incorrect amount of chips put into the pot, or an error about to be made in awarding a pot, has an ethical obligation to point out the error." (emphasis mine)

the more I think about pre, the more I think the raise and sizing is good if UTG+2 never limp/reraises, which is probably true

Reading through this thread I noticed everyone was in agreement w/ raising the shorties c/r shove. However everyone besides myself wanted to put in a large raise while I advocated a smaller raise.

My thinking is this, OMC is draw heavy and he just isn't calling a raise over top of an all in bet w/ any draw. We bet the flop/then put in the third bet, even just slightly better than a min raise, and in his eyes we look super strong.

The rare times when he decided to get extra tricky w/ QQ or KJ and tried to trap both players and just called the flop, well now his trap looks like it worked, it's time for him to spring to life and gii. In those admittedly rare times when this happens, we can fold. We didn't make a committing size raise and safely fold to his obvious nutted hand.

I feel like since he's never calling a 3 bet on the flop w/ any draw or 2 pair when it's multi way like this, we should bet the min amount to get it done. We aren't trying to get value from him, we're isoing the shorty that we should be doing good against. When he does on occasion 4 bet jam his KJ, we fold w/o excessive harm done.

Anyway that's what I was thinking, but since I'm in the minority I'm probably missing something. You guys that want to bomb the turn, like to hear why?

Grunching:

Going with OP's reads, I'd have to put V1 on something at least as good as T9. He's shoving now, and he's not bluffing, so what ever it is that he has, he thinks its a good hand. Most specifically, I don't think he "just" has a draw. Also, I don't think he has much KQ, AQ, JJ+ type hands since he probably is raising or l/rr those hands.

V1's range: Lots of 2p, made straight, 98 is probably the bottom of his range. He certainly can have 99, but probably cannot have TT+.

V2 is probably OESD+FD to 99+ to the nuts with the nut redraw. We're probably truly racing with him. We probably have some fold equity if he's on the bottom of his range though. I think the bottom of his range is something like 98, or AX

What to do?

Methinks we need a read on what V2 will do if we flat. Flatting is best for us, since we're almost certainly behind V1, but not necessarily that far behind V1. We could be way ahead of V2 or way behind. But since V2 did not raise, then we're probably not that bad off.

Do we think V2 would be able to fold the flush draw parts of his range? Is he folding pair+draw if we 3b? Seems like a tough way to make money.

In a vacuum, I flat, and give V2 a chance to take control or continue on. It seems to me that these type of spots we find that V2 lets us draw cheaply -- and if so, there's no point in bloating up the pot now.

But I think folding is probably right here most often though. There are a lot of cards we need to fade here, and we'll see all 5.

So, I'll say flat but looking for a reason to get away from my hand.

Post-grunching:

I'm not sure what raising does for us here. Are we trying to get V2 to fold, or do we expect him to call with worse?

IMO, this is a tough spot, and probably not a very profitable spot to try to put lots of $$$ in the pot.

IDK... I see OMC types get tricky all the time with overpairs, and JJ-QQ stuff. This guy seems sophisticated enough that it may not be the case here, but I see it quite a bit.