This is a live $1/2 table at my local casino. Villain who has been betting huge on solid pairs opens for $37 and gets 4 callers. I have AQdd in the big blind. The table has been loose so I am not too worried about the other players. I think about shoving but elect to call. My stack size is $400 and villain covers me. I put him on TT+ and maybe AKs.

Flop comes 578 two diamonds. I am first to act. The pot is about $220. I elect to shove. I don’t want the villain to call because I am sure he very likely has an overpair. Is this the right play? A friend disagrees and feels that a check raise is stronger. But a check raise commits him to the pot. I am happy winning the pot. And if he calls I have lot of equity. What do you guys think ?

I would check raise.

I am unsure if most villains as described fold the flop with an overpair.
I’d be perfectly fine checking and letting anyone else put more money in this pot.
Once you shove, if they fold, dead money, good for you.
If you get two callers, your odds on for EV, good for you.

I think leading out with a shove prevents any bets you could “steal” and ensures you get called by only one person which is the least optimal (but still good) option for you.

Check, then shove.

By check raising I am getting more dead money. So I can understand why that’s also optimal. But I am hoping the higher pair folds. (Which you says is unlikely). Is that a -EV thought process ? I didn’t calculate my equity but I checked now and it’s a coin flip against that range.

What other hands are you open shoving in this spot?
Are you doing it with 88,77,55, 87? Probably not right?
That's why open shoving is wrong.

c/jam all day erry day

Fair point. Thanks !

Open shoving is wrong because it allows all 5 opponents to play perfectly against us. They might have put in money with weaker FDs but now they likely wont unless it’s a big draw, etc

Yes those are other reasons as well along the same lines. The manifestation of grossly unbalanced play are the things you mention.

Don't shove preflop against the range that you assigned V. Flat is fine.

AP, check raise is the way to go, as most have pointed out.

Giving them an opportunity to fold a hand that has decent equity against us is not playing perfectly. A shove here likely folds out AK, and that is a mistake by V.

I also think balance here is silly. Yes, at higher stakes you should avoid making semi bluffs in a spot where you have no value range or you are exploitable, but here I dont care too much. I want to get as many folds as I can or as many calls as I can. Open shoving maximizes fold equity.

If we are a bit shallower I probably open shove, but at this depth you can still make a healthy check/shove that puts TT in a tough spot.

I am trying to see how it would put someone with AA or KK in a tough spot. After I check, I assume he bets about $100. With two short stack calls amounting to $120, and I shove, the pot is now $220 + $100 + $120 + $350 = $800 approximately. He would have to put $300 to win $800. Is that really putting him in a tough spot ? I suppose with so many players he would feel behind.

All of this. Basically the standard reason you’d want to check/raise.

Giving them an opportunity to fold Kxdd/Qxdd/Jxdd, OESD, weak TP, is basically letting them play near perfect to us. How is him folding AK, im assuming no diamonds, a mistake by him....? He’s playing vs our range, not our actual hand.

Open shoving is obviously +EV, but checking is just much better.

Why exactly are you trying to maximize fold equity? You hardly ever fold out a better hand, and you fold out all worse hands. You’re just basically shoving because “lol NFD + 2 overs, too much $ in the pot, arrrr in”.

It’s not even about balance. Checking is just going to be superior to just open shoving. Of all 5 players, do you think they make more mistakes when we check or when we overshove 2x pot?

It’s super likely somebody has xxdd here. We need to keep them in, and possibly make them feel committed when they bet or someone bets they flat, and we x/jam with them drawing almost dead. Why give them an exit by open shoving?

Thanks all!

As for the result: villian folded KK face up. Got two small stacks to call. I hit the flush on the turn. One player had a pair and straight draw, one had 99.

Yup, I c/r here all day. Get that dead money in the middle and put 1-pair hands to the test.

Uhh just no. But I welcome any opponent to play their hands vs me this way. Playing the way you advocate, you are saying that you always have a flush draw here but hey that's ok because I might fold AK if that's a hand I even have. I can play perfectly against you. If your opponent is at all competent and sometimes even if they're not open shoving does not maximize fold equity in spots like this. It screams flush draw.

And just generally speaking if you build a strategy around illogical thinking like this you will have a hard time winning.

I find it funny that many of the posts on here use the results of a single hand in question to validate their play or logic. They don't realize that that's the way of thinking about a hand that is wrong to begin with.