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Old 07-10-2018, 07:44 PM   #26
Calldown88
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Re: Set of 44s, Fold Here?

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Originally Posted by Mr Spyutastic View Post
With this logic you could just raise pre with every hand. "If everyone calls who cares just continue if you flop 2 pair+"
How is that remotely the same? Flop a set 5 ways when you've gotten 4:1 preflop? I'd like to hear why you think this isn't a profitable situation, or at least how you think it's comparable to playing any 2 cards.
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Old 07-10-2018, 09:19 PM   #27
Mr Spyutastic
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Re: Set of 44s, Fold Here?

My point for low stakes strategy that it's better to limp along small pairs for set value as opposed to raising was that if you opt for the raising strategy you will seldom be HU and often 3 to 4 ways on a board where you haven't flopped a set.
You're going to burn a lot of money unnecessarily.

Your response seemed to be that if you raise and get called in a bunch of spots and don't flop a set just give up post flop no big deal.

Well I could say the same thing for say T2. I will always raise this hand pf. If I get called in a bunch of spots and the flop is not TTx or 22x. who cares I will just give up post.

Your other reason was that it might get HU and you can c bet and take the pot. Again you can just do this with any 2 cards then.

You need to realize that your actual cards do matter when coming up with good pf and post flop strategies.

small pairs are generally hands you want to see flops for cheap. Not turn them into bluffs.
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:45 PM   #28
Calldown88
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Re: Set of 44s, Fold Here?

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Your response seemed to be that if you raise and get called in a bunch of spots and don't flop a set just give up post flop no big deal.
This is exactly what I'm saying. If you're going to the flop having contributed $ equating to 4:1, you either hit a set, or you (generally) fold. Of course flops like 933, 832, etc you can go ahead and bet when checked to.

You're going to flop a set 12% of the time. You don't have to make much postflop to make this worth it the times that you do flop a set. What do you think the difference is between flopping a set in a 5 way limped pot vs flopping a set in a 5 way raised pot? The only difference is that it's easier to build a big pot and get value from your set.

Playing 102 or other random garbage you flop 2 pair 2% of the time, and when you flop bottom 2, or top and bottom, your hand is somewhat vulnerable. You flop trips a little over 1%, and they're weak trips. This is not at all comparable to the strength or frequency of flopping a set with a pocket pair.
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:11 PM   #29
Minatorr
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Re: Set of 44s, Fold Here?

Pf is so standard. Raising is just awful. I’d almost rather fold than iso raise like $15 here
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:17 PM   #30
setintostraight
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Re: Set of 44s, Fold Here?

How deep do you guys have to be to raise this preflop? We're OTB and we have a pocket pair, imo that's always a raise at 100BB+, otherwise it's hard to get stacks in when we do flop a set.

Here, we're at 90BB, so it's borderline. I see merits for limping and raising both.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:13 AM   #31
Mr Spyutastic
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Re: Set of 44s, Fold Here?

RFI from certain positions is fine.

Raising after a bunch of limpers who are likely going to call whatever you raise it too and not fold much postflop is just not good.

If you're not a believer, why don't you try it. Every spot where there are limpers and you have 22-66, instead of limping along to see a flop, make a raise pf and play the hand out. Let me know how that works out for you.
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Old 07-11-2018, 08:58 AM   #32
MikeStarr
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Re: Set of 44s, Fold Here?

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Originally Posted by setintostraight View Post
How deep do you guys have to be to raise this preflop? We're OTB and we have a pocket pair, imo that's always a raise at 100BB+, otherwise it's hard to get stacks in when we do flop a set.

Here, we're at 90BB, so it's borderline. I see merits for limping and raising both.
We dont have to "get stacks in" to play a hand profitably. We just need the correct risk/reward.

If I limp for $5 and then make $120 in the hand and you raise to $20 and then make $400 in the hand, my risk reward is better. Im going to win more money long term with my sets than you.

(This doesnt account for more money you may win or lose by playing bigger pots by Cbetting and taking it down or not taking it down)
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:19 AM   #33
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Re: Set of 44s, Fold Here?

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Bet/3bet postflop w/ money behind is always nutted in my experience.
ELI5? Please
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:22 AM   #34
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Re: Set of 44s, Fold Here?

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Originally Posted by Mr Spyutastic View Post
RFI from certain positions is fine.

Raising after a bunch of limpers who are likely going to call whatever you raise it too and not fold much postflop is just not good.

If you're not a believer, why don't you try it. Every spot where there are limpers and you have 22-66, instead of limping along to see a flop, make a raise pf and play the hand out. Let me know how that works out for you.
No experience needed. Would bet my roll that the answer is "poorly".
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:53 AM   #35
setintostraight
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Re: Set of 44s, Fold Here?

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We dont have to "get stacks in" to play a hand profitably. We just need the correct risk/reward.

If I limp for $5 and then make $120 in the hand and you raise to $20 and then make $400 in the hand, my risk reward is better. Im going to win more money long term with my sets than you.

(This doesnt account for more money you may win or lose by playing bigger pots by Cbetting and taking it down or not taking it down)
I'm surprised to see this coming from you, a supposed 2/5 crusher, whose posting is usually top notch with some interesting hand histories. You would actually be making less in the long run, because it's not just risk/reward. It's risk/reward/time. Unless you discovered some secret to infinite life.

If this set situation occurs every 10 hours, for example and all your other hands are EV0, you've made ~3.8BB/hr from a limped pocket pair, and ~12.6BB/hr from a raised pocket pair.

Let's take a different approach. A 100BB stack raises in CO or HJ to $20 after 2 limpers, 1/3 stakes and your table read is telling you that this is very unlikely to get 3!. Do you call with 44? You still have position, but your risk/reward ratio just went down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Spyutastic View Post
RFI from certain positions is fine.

Raising after a bunch of limpers who are likely going to call whatever you raise it too and not fold much postflop is just not good.

If you're not a believer, why don't you try it. Every spot where there are limpers and you have 22-66, instead of limping along to see a flop, make a raise pf and play the hand out. Let me know how that works out for you.
How many limpers, how big are their stacks, what is their skill level? You do realize how rare this actually comes up, right? What sort of sample size do you expect me to come up with here? 2 hands? Come on.

Btw, I do not advocate raising 22 & 33, even OTB. But 44+ IP, I'm raising most of the time unless SB/BB is an active and decent 3! player

Last edited by setintostraight; 07-11-2018 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:21 PM   #36
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Re: Set of 44s, Fold Here?

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Originally Posted by setintostraight View Post
I'm surprised to see this coming from you, a supposed 2/5 crusher, whose posting is usually top notch with some interesting hand histories. You would actually be making less in the long run, because it's not just risk/reward. It's risk/reward/time. Unless you discovered some secret to infinite life.

If this set situation occurs every 10 hours, for example and all your other hands are EV0, you've made ~3.8BB/hr from a limped pocket pair, and ~12.6BB/hr from a raised pocket pair.

Let's take a different approach. A 100BB stack raises in CO or HJ to $20 after 2 limpers, 1/3 stakes and your table read is telling you that this is very unlikely to get 3!. Do you call with 44? You still have position, but your risk/reward ratio just went down.



How many limpers, how big are their stacks, what is their skill level? You do realize how rare this actually comes up, right?What sort of sample size do you expect me to come up with here? 2 hands? Come on.

Btw, I do not advocate raising 22 & 33, even OTB. But 44+ IP, I'm raising most of the time unless SB/BB is an active and decent 3! player
Sounds like you haven't played much.

Also if you do choose a raising strategy, you're not taking into acct the extra money you're investing pf and not hitting your set 7/8 times and flushing it down the toilet. Or getting 3 bet and not being able to call. Or C betting some K 9 6 flop and it not getting through. Take into acct all those scenarios where you lose this extra money compared to winning this bigger pot. Which isn't always the case either.
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Old 07-11-2018, 06:51 PM   #37
bigdaddycope
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Re: Set of 44s, Fold Here?

if we're deep we can start talking about other options. There's just two many combo draws, a few value hands we're actually ahead of, as well as the fact that we have outs against his straights.

arr-in


also, pf is completely standard flat after multiple limpers. I'd start raising 77 maybe 66 depending on the field.


raising 44 in this spot in MOST low stakes live games is just burning money. People limp hands they shouldn't be limping therefore can have stronger hands than they should in a limp call range. Combine that with the fact that they'll just limp call garbage 44 is not a hand you should iso over MULTIPLE limps IMO.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:02 PM   #38
MikeStarr
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Re: Set of 44s, Fold Here?

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Originally Posted by Mr Spyutastic View Post
Sounds like you haven't played much.

Also if you do choose a raising strategy, you're not taking into acct the extra money you're investing pf and not hitting your set 7/8 times and flushing it down the toilet. Or getting 3 bet and not being able to call. Or C betting some K 9 6 flop and it not getting through. Take into acct all those scenarios where you lose this extra money compared to winning this bigger pot. Which isn't always the case either.
Or raising 44, flopping a set and winning nothing more post flop because nobody has anything. You win much more with a set of 4s on avg when you are the caller not the raiser.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:39 PM   #39
setintostraight
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Re: Set of 44s, Fold Here?

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Or raising 44, flopping a set and winning nothing more post flop because nobody has anything. You win much more with a set of 4s on avg when you are the caller not the raiser.
I'll just have to take your word for it. I don't really understand it for lack of experience, and haven't gotten 44 often enough to say whether raising or limping makes me more money.

My only personal concern is that with low pairs like 33 and 22, chances of being set over set are fairly significant.

Aside from that, I'm just not grasping the magnitude of the difference between calling and raising on the button. It seems like it should make approximately the same amount of money, or at least within +-5%
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:54 AM   #40
shorn7
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Re: Set of 44s, Fold Here?

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Originally Posted by setintostraight View Post
I'll just have to take your word for it. I don't really understand it for lack of experience, and haven't gotten 44 often enough to say whether raising or limping makes me more money.

My only personal concern is that with low pairs like 33 and 22, chances of being set over set are fairly significant.

Aside from that, I'm just not grasping the magnitude of the difference between calling and raising on the button. It seems like it should make approximately the same amount of money, or at least within +-5%
DO take his word for it. Mike is one of the better and most experienced players on here.
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